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this is not an discussion/debate about abortion or racism; this is a discussion about

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by chievous minniefield, Feb 26, 2002.

  1. chievous minniefield

    chievous minniefield Contributing Member

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    morality.

    in the abortion thread, Jeff listed a series of circumstances that would not exist in a "moral" world. I'm too lazy and my connection is too slow for me to go back and quote it.

    but I'm curious to pose the question to Jeff or anyone else:

    where does a moral frame of reference come from?

    or, put differently:

    most of us would agree that it's wrong to cut in line. but where do we get that notion from?

    where does that moral standard come from?

    why aren't we all born with the basic hunch that cutting in line is good?
     
  2. Mrs. JB

    Mrs. JB Member

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    I think it comes down to good old "moral relativism." The society in which we are raised dictates what is "moral" and what is not. Children have a non-dualistic nature -- meaning they have no concept of good/bad, moral/evil, etc... It isn't until their society teaches them these concepts that they begin to think of the world in terms of right and wrong.
     
  3. red

    red Contributing Member

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    my morals come from things i wouldnt want done to me. for instance i dont cut in line because it pisses me off when someone does it to me.
     
  4. x34

    x34 Member

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    Nicely put.

    A society's (or individual's) religion has historically played an important part in helping to develop these concepts.

    red, I think that even the idea of "do onto others" applies here. I don't think its ingrained or a natural idea.

    x34
     
  5. treeman

    treeman Member

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    Conscience. Those that don't have one tend to think that cutting in line (or murder, or theft, or whatever) is OK...

    How do we develop a conscience? It's probably not hereditary.
     
  6. chievous minniefield

    chievous minniefield Contributing Member

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    that's sort of what I'm getting at.

    where do we get the notion of "conscience"?

    where does that inner voice come from?

    I don't agree that children are completely neutral morally until we come along and instruct them otherwise.

    if one 3-year-old hits another 3-year-old, the one who gets hit is going to start crying and will have a strong suspicion that something "wrong" has just occurred.

    and, with all due respect to Mrs. JB, if everyone's sense of morality really does come down to moral relativism, then how could jeff or anyone else make a claim such as the one that got me to start this thread:

    "in a moral world, there would be no _______".

    would the statment not have to be, "in my personal moral world, there would be no _______"?

    and if that is what the statement would have to be, then what would be the point of making it, since millions of other people's own personal moral reference points would cancel the statement out? in fact, even just 1 other person's moral reference point could cancel the statement out.

    for clarification's sake, I'm not arguing that moral relativism does not exist. clearly, we do not all share the same morality.

    but I am trying to address where the idea of morality comes from to begin with. saying that we all have differing views on morality doesn't really speak to the question of where any of us get any view of morality to begin with.

    put differently: why does anyone have any morality? why did the first morality come into being? wouldn't it be more convenient for everyone if there were no morality? we could all do as we pleased then.

    and, for anyone who has thought more about evolution than I have: is there any darwinian or evolutionary perspective on morality and why or whether it should exist?
     
  7. treeman

    treeman Member

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    chievous:

    Children (after they reach a certain age - perhaps 5 or so) are able to think in terms of "I wouldn't like it if someone did that to me". From that point, society can start drilling the Golden Rule into their head... Eventually, it becomes automatic. This is a good thing, of course...

    It has been well documented in a plethora of psychological and sociological studies that the one thing that hard-core criminals universally lack is what we call a "conscience". Why do they lack this?

    They generally (but not always) come from poor backgrounds wher the parents were either absent or paid little attention to child-rearing, and abuse is often a factor. They never got that Golden Rule "drilling" that everyone else got as a kid.

    One can argue that there is no "right" or "wrong", and in an absolutist way they would be correct (although curiously, this argument is usually made by moral relativists). But there is little argument that some behaviors are desired, while others are not, and for society to function smoothly (without total anarchy, I mean) we must all agree on which behaviors should fall into which category. If we do not agree on which behaviors fall into which category - at least in a general sense - then the Golden Rule cannot be taught effectively.

    And say what you want about Christianity, but the Golden Rule is one area where they've got things right. Without it we would have chaos. Or a dictatorship, as people would not be able to act civilly on their own accord, and order would have to be imposed.
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Contributing Member

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    i would agree that the culture we live in has a huge effect...

    but more than that, my faith has colored my morality. morality, to me, is best evidenced how you act when no other human beings are around you. if you feel grateful for grace from a loving, perfect God, then you tend to act accordingly. i have tons of friends who do not place faith in any deity...i would say their versions of morality are similar to mine...but not entirely similar..and those differences usually come down to theology.
     
  9. Nomar

    Nomar Member

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    Children know that cutting in line is bad, because teachers punish them for it...
     
  10. Coach AI

    Coach AI Contributing Member

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    Simple, yet well said.
     
  11. Desert Scar

    Desert Scar Contributing Member

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    I would add the golden rule may be incomplete. I have heard another rule refered to the platinum rule--do onto others as they want to be done to.

    For example, I might be comfortable about being teased about gaining a few extra pounds, or if I begin to lose my hair. But I would not tease my wife (who I know really well) about extra pounds even if relevant (it isn't, but this is a hypothetical), nor would I tease someone I didn't know to well about the hair unless I knew they were not sensistive to that issue. Thus I think paying attention not just to how you see things or what you are comfortable with, but making an effort to see things from another's perspective and doing your best to respect that in your actions is an important part of being moral.

    My 2c
     

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