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Recipe for Success or Recipe for Disaster

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by oeilpere, Nov 29, 2000.

  1. oeilpere

    oeilpere Member

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    It is clear we have some growing to do over the next several months if we want to even think about having a respectable season, not to mention a run at the playoff slots.

    The Recipe:

    1. Cut down on turnovers! The fact that you have lost the opportunity to score is even more hurtful when the other team repeatedly scores on a large percentage of those miscues. (An amazing coach's secret: decreasing turnovers will increases the effectiveness of your defense.)

    2. Pass the ball! Giving the ball up to a teammate means that he must not only receive the ball, but he must receive it where and when he is at the most advantageous position to do something with it. Giving Shandon or Mo Taylor the ball when they are out of position is a waste of a possession. The stats may say 7 assists, but if 4 of those left the player without a good (read: comfort zone) opportunity, I call that another turnover.(It is also extremely frustrating for teammates.)

    3. Learn tempo fundamentals! No team plays one style of ball and is successful. I do not doubt the ability of this team to change the tempo, but I seriously question their competence in knowing when to do so (RT knows but they don't listen), or desire to do so (Read: committment to the game plan). Let's face it, the high run, iso, flying outside solo, give and go inside, playground game is fun. They all have a place in a Pro game. But using it to the exclusion of other more tried and fundamental plays, just does not bring long-term TEAM success. A well rounded offensive attack and a sustainable fluid defense will win everytime.

    Pick any two of the above, blend with a harmonious and healthy roster, and we have a winning-focused season. Pick all three and we are in the Western Finals.

    [​IMG]

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  2. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Boy you are asking for 100 cc.net "chefs" to spoil the recipe now.

    I'll start by adding a cup of:

    4. Patience...to roll-out new offense piece-by-piece in a structured manner, and to execute fundamental motion with court patience. Let's not forget Bobby Knight, Dean Smith and Coach K have the luxury of much more practice time and 2 years of training starters before they become jr and sr to really run their motion. NBA coaches have to get 5 running in harmony with half the practice time, and those players have to execute each possession with half the shot-clock time. Motion is very difficult in the NBA.

    I am seeing less and less "high run iso" in the 1st through 3rd quarters. My question is: are our cc.net descriptions of our offense zero-ing in on the Mobley 4th Q attack, too much, and not describing the 1st and 3rd quarters where Francis is mixing another recipe.

    oeilpere, you are at the game and great at the objective read. I want to say two things without sounding like I am placing blame, griping, or looking for an argument. I just want feedback from others on what Rudy must be seeing out there, and have been waiting for a nice objective thread from you:

    1) the 1st and 3rd quarters have hardly any ISOs anymore. Rudy is trying to get them to run "fundamental plays",

    2) (and this is the one no one wants to hear), Hakeem can't run motion. I see him not moving correctly. He can just ruin an entire possession without even touching the ball. Everyone must move in harmony. Motion is a recipe with 5 ingredients.

    So, oeilpere, what is your take on those two.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  3. Moe

    Moe Contributing Member

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    Wow, an OP sighting. HeyPee, I think you're right about Hakeem. However, do you really have to have 5 to run motion. Couldn't you put Hakeem on the off side of the ball 10-12 feet out ready to go to the offensive glass and basically just stay out of the way of the motion of the other 4?

    I really didn't get to see the game last night because of company that aren't exactly rockets fanatics. What the heck is with Stevie taking 7 shots? For at least one half, that's at most 3 shots and maybe even less! 4 turnovers for Mo? How did that happen?

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    [This message has been edited by Moe (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  4. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    Moe...no. You cannot run motion by hiding someone. All five players must pick, move, pass, and shoot. They are constantly swapping positions. If one guy doesn't do that, his area of the court becomes stagnant and prevents movement into it. This is true for ultimate frisbee, soccer, run-n-shoot pass patterns, and probably hockey as well. Basically, any sport allowing offenses to react to defenses as a cohesive unit.

    Movement requires spacing and picks/passes with a reason (as oeilpere alluded to). If a guy moves to Hakeem area, it is to give a pick, and Hakeem then should move and look to receive a pass or pick for the next guy,,,and so on.

    I'm not saying we can't run plays into Dream in the low post, or run plays through a Duncan-like high post position, but that is not motion. When we run motion, Dream gets in the way a lot, leaving the other 4 players at a loss to know what to do, then we look ugly and Rudy gets blamed for having "no ability to implement motion", which is a vast overstatement by Dreamshake.

    I'm also not saying you can run motion all game. I know of no coach who has ever advocated doing that. In fact, schools like Kansas and, after splitting from Larry Brown, John Calipari when at UMass build systems out of running secondary breaks that move into motion (or flex) to look for easy buckets. If nothing materializes in 35 second, they then ISO the best player.

    Now, that is hard to do in a 24-sec clock. But I do see many of our so-called ISOs for Mo and Francis to first be attempts at baskets from a set play or from motion.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  5. Moe

    Moe Contributing Member

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    HeyPee, if you are convinced that you can't hide a guy in a motion offense, what is the solution for the rockets? Can you teach an old dog new tricks? As I said before, I agree that Hakeem looks lost in motion.

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  6. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    As I often say, I don't believe in speculating on solutions for Rudy. I enjoy simply watching and trying to figure out the solutions he's implementing.

    I can say that Motion is not Magic. Neither is the Triangle Offense (a flex system) or the Utah PnR, and other media-hyped offenses.

    If Hakeem is confused, do you get him out of the game when you want to run complicated systems, or do you keep beating your head against the wall, and watch him get three 3-sec violations without the ball like last night...ugh!
     
  7. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    heyp: I've noticed quite a bit more set offensive plays outside of the simple ISO. I heard on one radio show about a month ago from someone with the team or maybe it was a journalist that it would take the team almost half the season to install the entire offense Rudy wants because the players are young and some are new to Rudy's system.

    This wouldn't really surprise me too much. And consider how many defensive schemes must also be learned. Of course, all of these are fluid based on the other team and decisions have to be made on the fly.

    It seems to me that the set plays run now are plays that were probably put in last month some time but have taken a month's worth of repitition just so that the team would have enough confidence to run them properly and avoid costly mistakes.

    I can only assume that these plays are being run more in the 1st and 3rd to minimize the problems that come with running newer plays or at least plays that have received enough repitition to just now be ready for execution during a game.


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    Time for a new clause.
     
  8. Thanos

    Thanos Member

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    I found this to be quite intersting. Sometimes i wonder if it really is to our benefit that Rudy is a player´s coach. The soft approach means that the players absolutely LOVE Rudy, but don´t respect him nearly as much.

    That was crystal clear in the Olympics and seems to be the case here.

    I love Rudy, but i think that he needs to have a different mindset when dealing with young players such as the ones we have now.

    Saying that Rudy knows but they don´t listen is utter lunacy. Who´s in charge here after all? Sometimes when i hear quotes from Mobley saying how much he wants to be in the all-star game, i wonder if the inmates are running the asylum after all...

    That´s why, even though i reallyu like Rudy as a person and as coach, i still prefer the hard nosed Riley/Van Gundy approach.

    Their players bleed for them because they fear and respect their coaches. Authority is a fragile thing. Once broken, it can never be repaired.

    But enough babbling. I wonder what Oilpere has to say about this.

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    "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
     
  9. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    oeilpere, excellent points. I really have seen much of everything you describe, and would love to watch a game with you someday so we can better communicate what we see.

    I am going to make some comments regarding your take, not to object to what you say, but to explain differences in the way we talk about it. I also what to zero in on exactly what I mean by Dream ruining a possession by not moving. I definitely agree that we often don't seem interested in exploiting good positioning, but I would not explain that as a primary goal of motion anyhow...it tends to turn into dump-it-in low post.

    That's too broad a statement for me. You could say the same thing about Flex and Set Plays. I've been told by coaches they will run 8 minutes of Motion, then 5 minutes of Set Plays, then a Flex for 8 minutes.

    I would say you are closer to describing Flex, like the Triangle. Motion Offenses are a philosophy of movement, that doesn't really force the defenders to react to choreographed options, rather it relies on them making a mistake by exposing a passing lane. You have rules and regulations, like if you gave a pick, you then get one (which might be what you are calling "choreographed"), but the actual execution must also include unplanned reactions to the defense. Your primary goal is to keep picking and passing until you create a layup by the defenders losing track of a player (Shandon anyone).

    The Triangle is about entry points, and so is Sloan's offense. You create an entry point and run choreographed options from it, forcing the defenders to make choices.

    I know, I know...subtle differences to what I used to describe Motion. The differences are better seen in how Flex vs Motion is taught and practiced.

    So, do we run Motion or Flex or Set Plays
    First, for the record, I'm not convinced we are running motion. I saw what looked like attempts only twice last night. Flex from standard 4out1 entry points is more common. And then we have plenty of Set Plays like the alley oops and 2 shakes. In Flex, it is very common to leave a star on the weakside as a secondary option to "flex" to (the Bulls used Pippen this way a lot; Utah used Hornachek). So, there is a solution for Dream...Moe. In Motion, all 5 players could be in any position at anytime, as they spin the defenders around with picking, passing and moving. The problem is that defenses also know your rules of movement as well, from the experience they gained in college (as you mention). And as you said, the defense is looking to deny motion by getting in the way of it, and corralling it by overplaying the passing lanes and ballhandlers. When this happens, it doesn't look like Motion anymore.

    So, what about Hakeem
    Again, I agree about the overmatch and positioning thing, and am going to start looking out for what you call "forcing" player involvement to appease Rudy then it only leads to "poor position" and "turnovers". Boy, that sure did appear yesterday with the first 4 touches by Anderson leading to 2 blocks, a woof, and a turnover, and Shandon sitting early. Those were forces for sure, and you are probably right about them not entirely being Anderson's fault.

    As for Hakeem, when I say he is clogging our offense, it is usually when he is in the high post. He gets caught standing there with Francis and Mobley pointing out the fact he is supposed to be picking for another player or moving to the open spot. I've seen Walt shake his head expecting a pick and left just standing there, not knowing what to do, then Francis has to invent something...and cc.net yells out that he is just dribbling too much and then ISOing.

    oeilpere, watch Hakeem when he is in the high post. He looks very uncomfortable.

    aelliott I've seen your website, and your favorite frisbee. So, do you play in any ultimate leagues, or just pick up. I've largely retired to the more pedestrian sport of frisbee golf. And yes, I thought those golf disks were sacriligous for quite some time, but finally succumbed.
     
  10. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    jeff,

    God, I couldn't agree more. I'm happy to hear a team rep say that, too.

    Oeilpere says he thinks we should be able to install this faster, because these are Pro's who should already know Motion and/or Flex systems. I agree. But, these Pro's also know how to defend Motion and Flex, from all their experience. It's all relative. Implementing systems will new players will always take time, at any level, no matter how much experience you have, because the defenses have equal experience.

    Nothing amazes me more on this board than to find a general agreement that "Defense wins in this league", yet we never give the opponents defense any credit. This was most apparent in MManal's thread regarding Mobley's lack of getting the ball to rollers in the Boston game. I asked, "Didn't anyone see the defense smother the pnr with a trap", and there is complete denial that the ballhandler should still be able to get the ball to the roller.

    I asked what is the reason for a trap. No one came back and said; "To deny the pass, or at least deny a crisp one." Come on. If the trap succeeds in taking away your passing lane, lobbing over it to an "unguarded" player rarely accomplishes anything, and is as dangerous as a skip pass. Can some people ever stop blaming Rudy and Mobley for everything? Not to say MManal was. Hey MManal, I still am going to answer your last post in that thread, but with some Flash drawings.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  11. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    aelliott I've seen your website, and your favorite frisbee. So, do you play in any ultimate leagues, or just pick up.

    Neither, I'm strictly a freestyler.

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  12. SmeggySmeg

    SmeggySmeg Contributing Member

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    HeyP,

    Nice description of Motion, and that is the problem with running pure motion in the pros. Sets are easy to learn, flex is easy to learn and you could teach 5 monkeys to run a set, but Motion requires one key element that is missing in a lot of Pro players .....THINKING, that is the ability to think and react as the game is played. I'm sure their thinking is I get paid to jump, dunk and make the highlight reels. So basically to be harsh, most pro players would be too dumb to run motion correctly and to complicate the problems coaches don't have the training time to teach them and in essence get them to play smart.

    Dream problem is more that he is stuck in post dump and 3 mode, now Motion due to it's unchoreographed nature means that if Dream is guarded by some rookie centre you can post him up, you can do whatever you want in motion as long as you don't stand still both on and off the ball.

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    "It's incredible to see how he [Mobley] can beat his guy one-on-one every
    time. That is a tremendous talent. The combination of Steve and Cuttino, I
    think, is wonderful in the backcourt."
    --the Dream
     
  13. ROXRAN

    ROXRAN Contributing Member

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    Here's my recipe: play smart basketball

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    Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!
     
  14. MManal

    MManal Member

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    HP,

    So if it was not possible for Cuttino to hit the open man in the corner off the double team even though Calvin Murphy was practically screaming at him to hit the open man are you condoning his forcing the shot over two defenders like he did in the Boston game? When Collier broke away into the corner off the screen and rolls in that game, two defenders were on Mobley and he attempted to force a shot on both those defenders. Surely, this cant be a good thing.

    Also, that point Oeilp made about the guards missing the open man is soooooo accurate. Watch how many times Mo stands wide open on the wing and ends up watching one of the guards take a shot off the dribble. When the big man is set up in the post calling for the ball, one of the guards (mainly Mobley but Francis is guilty also sometimes) waves him off or makes him set a screen. This is the whole point Im trying to get across. I feel you need variety along with good ball movement in the offense. There is just not enough ball movement and passing; the Rockets are not very good in terms of assists and assists to turnovers as a team.

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    [This message has been edited by MManal (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  15. MManal

    MManal Member

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    Let me address my key concerns of this team in this thread so I can present them a clear fashion. All this talk about the implementation of motion offense is great but this team has some very fundamental problem.

    1. Ball movement stinks

    Oeilp's point about players not being hit in their comfort spots on the floor is very accurate. The key to a winning game plan on offense is not waving off teammates, missing them on the wings and not reading traps. The whole point off NBA offense is to make the defense break down somewhere and swing the ball where you get a wide open shot at the end of the rotation. Anyone watch the ball movement from the Kings last night? You can tell when a team is just flowing, and a team is just forcing. The minute you start missing open guys as OeilP pointed out, your offense begins to break down. Ever heard of the 30 assist rule? The Rockets havent.


    2. Defense especially in transition is not very good.

    The Rockets are allowing opponents to average .452 from the field against them. This is mainly b/c they allow a good amount of easy transition hoops which teams score on a high rate. The worst of this was against Boston and Sacramento. The ray of hope is that this can be worked on with practice, but it does need to addressed.


    The bright spot in all this is that the Rockets are still above .500 despite these issues that can be improved on. I dont believe in piling on any single player, but I will place portions of the blame on a player if I feel it is necessary. I realize HP that you are a really big fan of Mobley but by no means is he flawless. If I feel he needs to be brought to task like in the Boston game, I will bring that up.

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  16. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    MManal,

    I am not going to argue. I'm in agreement with both you and oeilpere. I've said that in both threads.

    It is like everyone has to place their beliefs in a pigeon-hole so we know how to argue with each other. This guy hates Mobley; that guy thinks Collier is a waste; it is all Francis's fault for not shooting; Mo is not fulfilling the billing; etc.

    I am not measuring players. I am not draftnet.com. I am watching the plays and the system grow. The players have roles in it. I like to see what Rudy can get out of his players.

    When you say that Calvin Murphy is yelling at Mobley, and I say I saw something the defense did that denied options and dictated us; that doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with your man Calvin.

    When I ask if you saw an aggressive trap, and you say traps don't matter because Stockton and Malone could burn them; then I guess you win. And when I further ask you "What is the goal of a trap?" to try to get you to think of what Mobley might possibly be experiencing, and you don't respond; then I think you are in denial about how a trap is designed to take away passing lanes and thus can disrupt what Rudy is trying to accomplish.

    Here in oeipere's thread, I am trying to add a little about how failed movement can cause total disarray, to the point of post men asking for the ball, and guards looking for something else that was supposed to happen.

    But MManal, I do not disagree with you or oeilpere. Can I please try to have critical discussions here about the system without it always reverting back to player analysis, and people taking sides about who's fault it was.

    I can tell you one thing. If you have any interest whatsoever in spotting an offensive system and game plan, you need to stop looking for what you think should happen. (I want Sloan's pnr offense; the Triangle is cool; those college teams sure now how to play fundamental bball, etc.) You need to just watch it, and think what was likely supposed to happen and what all the options were, then mix in what the DEFENSE was trying to accomplish in stopping it.

    Don't pigeon-hole this offense. It is too early.
     
  17. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

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    MManal, quit arguing with someone who is not arguing.

    I guess you are too sensitive like The Cat for broader conversation outside your world of beliefs.

    And for the last time...I hate the Mobley 2 Shakes. But I understand why Rudy would want to run it.

    [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited November 29, 2000).]
     
  18. MManal

    MManal Member

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    HP, I am not arguing, how is any of my post an argument? If you dont see in the games that players like Mo Taylor are being ignored and that the guards happen to be ignoring them and taking their shots instead does that make it wrong? I was simply trying to point that observation out. If your not watching the game for that, that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. The point of this thread is to have intelligent bball discussion not degenerate into an argument. Its just that I happen to agree with some of OeilP's points b/c I notice the same thing. The point of my comment was that like you call people out for always trying to blame Mobley and Rudy T, it seems that you are a lot of the time trying to defend him at all costs. My motive here is to bring a player to task if I feel he is doing something wrong whether or not I am a fan of his game.

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  19. MManal

    MManal Member

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    "And for the last time...I hate the Mobley 2 Shakes. But I understand why Rudy would want to run it."

    Re-read my post, was I talking about 2 Shakes or are you misquoting/misreading it? The first post was about Mobley and the guards not kicking to open teammates; the play discussed in there was screen and roll NOT 2 Shakes, the second was about team concepts as a whole.

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  20. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    This is true for ultimate frisbee, soccer, run-n-shoot pass patterns, and probably hockey as well.

    An ultimate frisbee reference...excellent.

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