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Affirmative Action

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Major, May 15, 2001.

  1. Major

    Major Member

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    I got this from the other political thread, but I wanted to see what everyone thought "Affirmative Action" really is, and whether they are for or against it. It's my understanding that quotas are already illegal and thus not a part of AA.

    I consider AA to be favoring a minority in the case of two otherwise equal individuals, as well as the government offering certain contracts to minority-type firms. I also consider AA to be looking at people's race to help create diversity (I assume this is how universities use AA).

    Personally, I think all of the above shouldn't be allowed.

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  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!

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    I concur entirely.

    Race or skin tone should not be used in any way to enhance someone's position for employment.

    As long as anyone is getting a "leg up" for being different, it will always promote discrimination.

    Merit is all that should be considered.

    DaDakota

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  3. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Quotas are illegal. I'm pretty sure that your first example of hiring the minority applicant if everything else is equal is illegal too.

    I'm nearly positive that all AA says is that you simply can't turn someone down because of their race.

    I have no problem with universities setting aside a certain number of places for students from inner-city schools because they simply didn't have the resources that those students in suburbia had to succeed. I also have no problem with the government giving contracts to minority owned firms, as long as they do the job as well as the other firms.

    While most don't like to admit it, minorities have been wronged in this country through segregation and discrimination. While I obviously don't advocate a policy that would basically do the same to whites, you need to have something in place that tries to make sure it doesn't happen again, whether we were responsible or not.

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  4. Achebe

    Achebe Contributing Member

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    If merit is equal, then there's no harm in being forced to hire the minority... otherwise, all of the business owners could just hire people that are like them.

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    [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited May 15, 2001).]
     
  5. SamCassell

    SamCassell Contributing Member

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    I think the "all other factors being equal, hire minorities in order to have the workplace better reflect the community" is legal, but I couldn't say for sure.

    I am against AA because it doesn't address the underlying problems, which include lack of educational opportunity and societal racism. In fact, it may increase racist attitudes and foster a (mistaken) belief among both whites and minorities that the latter cannot succeed on their own merit.

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  6. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    I didn't really word that right, what I meant was that I don't think it's illegal to NOT hire the minority applicant in that situation.

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  7. Major

    Major Member

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    I'm nearly positive that all AA says is that you simply can't turn someone down because of their race.

    That is just equal opportunity -- AA goes beyond this (in some way) to benefit minorities. Like I said, though, I'm not sure the details so I'm just going on what I think it to mean. I think everyone would agree that you can't turn down anyone due to their race.

    While most don't like to admit it, minorities have been wronged in this country through segregation and discrimination.

    I agree, but I don't think the solution is AA. I feel that's just a band-aid type measure that is used to say "see, we're fixing the problem!" I think the focus needs to be on fixing inner-city schools and such. But my problem with AA is that it rewards minorities no matter what the circumstances -- in that a wealthy minority firm would still be favored over a struggling firm of primarily white people.

    I would have no problem with AA if it was based only on socio-economic status -- that is, the government favors poor people over rich people, but I don't think race is the way to go.

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  8. Live

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    When arguing for or against Affirmative Action, remember that no majority HAS EVER VOLUNTARILY shared or given opportunities with or to the minority, and in fact, try their damnedest to reserve such opportunities for themselves, to maintain the status quo. Remember, just 30-40 years ago (which in the scope of human history is equivalent to a blink or heartbeat), it was basically illegal to be non-white and non-male in this country, and I, as an African -American, would probably not be posting on this board.

    And for all those against Affirmative Action, who are quick to use the classic "I'm not racist, I never discriminated against anyone, Why should I be punished" argument, the reality is that, if this were 1950, how would you be any different from the people of the times? Do you think you would have been exposed to different people? Do you think you would have held many of the same beliefs and attitudes? How are you any different? How do you think you would feel about people who look like me?

    The tragic truth is, particularly if you were from the South, I would be just another "******" to you instead of the articulate, educated, proud, long-winded [​IMG] phenomenon that is writing this piece.

    The things we make change faster than we do. I write this because I don't want people to fool themselves into believing that they would have that much different from the ancestors, and that people are basically a product of their times.

    And that's why Affirmative Action exists. It holds the Constitution, and those who believe in it, to the virtues that it outlines and stands for.

    Now some argue, "Why should I pay for the sins of my ancestors, I never owned slaves or (consciously) discriminated against anyone, Why should I suffer?" I think I speak for all African-Americans and other minorities as I write,

    "Well, why should I pay for the sins of YOUR ANCESTORS, EITHER?!"


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  9. Pole

    Pole Houston Rockets--Tilman Fertitta's latest mess.

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    Why should either of us have to pay?

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  10. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    This is from the very beginning of affirmative action:

    "The Contractor will not discriminate against any employee or applicant for employment because of race, creed, color, or national origin. The Contractor will take affirmative action, to ensure that applicants are employed, and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin."

    JFK, Executive Order 10925, March 1961

    "No person in the United States shall, on the ground Or race, color or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving federal financial assistance."

    The Civil Rights Act of 1964

    "It is the policy of the Government of the United States to provide equal opportunity in federal employment for all qualified persons, to prohibit discrimination in employment because Or race, creed, color or national origin, and to promote the full realization of equal employment opportunity through a positive, continuing program in each department and agency."

    LBJ, Executive Order 11246, 1965

    In 1971, Nixon issued Revised Order #4 which required all contractors to develop "an acceptable affirmative action program," including "an analysis of areas w within which the contractor is deficient in the utilization Or minority groups and women, and further, goals and timetables to which the contractor's good faith efforts must be directed to correct the deficiencies." Contractors were instructed to take the term "minority groups" to refer to "Negroes, American Indians, Orientals, and Spanish Surnamed Americans." The concept "underutilization" meant "having fewer minorities or women in a particular job classification than would reasonably be expected by their availability." "Goals" were not to be "rigid and inflexible quotas" but "that gets reasonably attainable by means OR applying every good faith effort to make all aspects of the entire affirmative action program work."

    I got this from Stephen Cahn's History of Affirmative Action.

    You're right about needing to do something about inner-city schools as opposed to just allowing more inner-city students into schools. I wasn't proposing that at all. However, I do believe you have to make some concessions until the problems have been corrected.

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  11. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    I don't like AA (although we should probably use a different abbreviation because that just reminds me of Alcoholics Anonomys!) but I'm not sure how we would get around it.

    I think that, judging by the fact that less than 1 percent of the CEO's of fortune 500 companies are black and as few are women, it is fairly easy to come to the conclusion that it is difficult for minorities and women to reach lofty corporate goals.

    This isn't to say they can't strike out on their own. I think it just boils down to equity.

    I don't also believe that all of it is based on racism. I believe that most people hire based on what they see in a person and people are more comfortable with seeing some of themselves. It isn't that white hirers don't want to hire black employees because they hate black people. IMO, it is more based on feeling comfortable.

    That is, however, the problem. Until we can break some of those comfort habits, we will be stuck with employment problems for minorities.

    An even bigger issue, IMO, is hiring for women. With minorities, you can argue that a group that makes up 15 or 16 percent of the population shouldn't get 50 percent of the jobs. However, women make up 51 percent of the population yet they are dramatically under-represented. There are only 2 US Senators, I believe, who are women out of 100. That is a 2 percent representation of 51 percent of the population.

    I'll admit that I've worked for bosses who wouldn't hire minorities (or women) unless their qualifications were far and away better than white (or male) applicants. I'm sure that is still true today. Until we are able to see beyond skin color and gender, we will be forced to balance inequities for businesses who cannot do it themselves.

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  12. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    Actually Jeff, there's somewhere around 6 or 7 now, but that doesn't hurt your point at all.

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  13. Live

    Live Member

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    Shanna,

    I think Rocket River was stating that if you don't like Affirmative Action and don't feel that it's a productive solution to a problem that you DO recognize (disproportion of opportunities based on race and sex), what solution, if any, do you have?

    Don't complain about a program if you don't have a better alternative.

    BTW, I take it that you are either in school or have graduated, probably come from the typical middle-class background, and live a fairly comfortable, productive life...

    ...all of this while Affirmative Action has been a part of national policy.

    Oh yeah, I see your point about AA. [​IMG]

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  14. Major

    Major Member

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    I think Rocket River was stating that if you don't like Affirmative Action and don't feel that it's a productive solution to a problem that you DO recognize (disproportion of opportunities based on race and sex), what solution, if any, do you have?

    I think there are two major parts of this. One is what we can do -- I already gave my main solution to go in and focus on inner-city schools. If the problem is that poor students are not getting the same opportunities as better-off students, then giving them extra opportunities at the end of the process is not useful. You have to fix the core problem which is a weak educational system in the inner cities.

    Does that help people graduating and in the work force today? Not at all. Does it help solve the problem long-term? I would hope so. I don't think AA is anything but temporarily plugging a leak, and I think it brings more negatives with it than positives.

    Other things you can do is reform the system to be based on economic status instead of race -- ALL poor people need assistance. Not all minorities do.

    Finally, there's a time component. You can't eliminate racism in people who grew up that way, no matter how much you want to try. Strom Thurmond may not be racist today, but his actions are still going to reflect some racist tendencies -- its just human nature. You have to create a culture that doesn't classify people by race, and then each generation will get a bit closer to the ultimate ideal.

    ...all of this while Affirmative Action has been a part of national policy.

    Oh yeah, I see your point about AA.


    Are you saying we should not have opinions about things that don't directly affect or hurt us? I can't think things are wrong even though they didn't hurt me directly? I guess I should not have any opinions about welfare then, since I'm not on it? Education, either, since I'm no longer in school? I shouldn't comment about international affairs since I don't live in another country?

    Making policies based on how they affect yourself is absolutely the least effective way to make policy.


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  15. Jeff

    Jeff Clutch Crew

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    Does that help people graduating and in the work force today? Not at all. Does it help solve the problem long-term? I would hope so. I don't think AA is anything but temporarily plugging a leak, and I think it brings more negatives with it than positives.

    Maybe, but consider that there are many people still out there in their 30's, 40's and 50's who base their hirings on race in some form or fashion. They'll be in the work force for quite some time. Maybe it isn't racisim, per se, but it is a pattern of behavior that serves to keep a particular minority from getting ahead.

    Though there is a much greater stigma against racism today then there was 30 years ago, the stereotypes still exist in full force. If that serves to keep people from getting hired, it has no place in business.

    The problem is that most businesses will do whatever they can get away with to increase their bottom line. I'm not saying that they are all inherently evil, just that they do what serves their purpose. There are so many laws on the books today that are the result of people having to rein in business - slavery (just cheap labor), child labor laws, anti-trust laws, etc - that it seems fairly obvious that there is little choice in the matter.

    Hell, they gave the chemical refineries around Houston 30 years to clean up and they wouldn't so now the government is going to have to force them to do it and they are STILL fighting it.

    If the problem would disappear on its own, fine. But, until ethics become more important than economics, there isn't much choice.

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  16. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    YOU SAID: Af Action is not the solution
    I ASK: What is?

    You said minorities are not being punished . . only disadvantaged . . .BUT when I proposed the reverse happen to white males. .. you says why should they be PUNISHED

    You say discrimination is decreasing every generation
    I say it needs to STOP NOW . . IMMEDIATELY
    becuase
    if it doesn't we say hey . . .it's getting better. . be patient. . .I know we've taken advantage of you for years. . but a lil longer won't hurt. . . . .

    yet when I say we should say HEY we've taken advantages of minorities for years. . let's now turn the tables for a lil while to catch them up . . . YOU say that is out and out wrong?

    Why is it so wrong for white males to be at a disadvantage for a fews YET it is ok for minorities to be disadvantaged a FEW MORE years [generations]?

    The question is NOW! How do we make ammends
    for past disadvantages NOW!

    It seems a solution is fine as long as it doesn't COST anyone . . .except maybe the minorities who it has cost all along.


    Rocket River


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    [This message has been edited by Rocket River (edited May 15, 2001).]
     
  17. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    See this is my point
    For those graduating today and in the work force
    Your plans simple tells them. .. well uhm m
    Grin and bear it. . BUT YOUR KIDS will get
    some of that equality . . . [or TAKE ONE FOR
    THE TEAM!]

    May I ask . .. what are the NEGATIVES of Af Action?


    you make of point of saying all Minorities
    do not need assistance. . .
    My point is . . .maybe they do
    Is it fair that someone is in a 100K a yr job
    while his ADVANTAGED counter part is in the
    same job at 150K? or that his counter part
    is able to be VP while he is Asst VP because
    he is not so lucky as having the right skin tone? [in the case of all things being equal]

    The thing is that there needs to be diversity
    at the top and bottom.
    how long will we have to suffer through the
    racist [even unintentional racism] at the top

    I mean
    Strom Thurman [IMO] strong racist
    next gen . .we get Strom 2.0 .. less racist
    Strom 3.o even lesss racist

    how long before we filter it out?
    How long must minorities suffer . . WAITING on those in the upper levels who will keep hiring those they feel 'comfortable'with to expand their COMFORT ZONE to be more diverse?

    You see . . Your argument is to try to change
    but not disturb status Quo
    the argument against Af Action is that it
    disturbs status quo and causes RESENTMENT by
    the majority . . .well guess what THERE IS ALOT
    OF RESENTMENT BY THE MINORITIES . . but that
    resenment does not seem to be important to most.

    Rocket River

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  18. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    <deleted>


    [This message has been edited by Rocket River (edited May 15, 2001).]
     
  19. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    <deleted>

    [This message has been edited by Rocket River (edited May 15, 2001).]
     
  20. haven

    haven Member

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    Rocket River:

    You're limited in thinking only in terms of group action. That isn't a valid method for logical analysis. The question has to be: do individuals, at the personal level, receive equal consideration for positions?

    If they do, then affirmative action is unnecessary. And most recent studies have shown that very, very little active racism prevents minorities from working their way up the carere latter. This means that discrimination isn't keeping anyone down; it's just that some people don't start out in the same place to begin with. Generally, minorities begin life in more disadvantaged situations. That's not always true: poor white people are in trouble as well.

    That's the only thing affirmative action can remedy. You can't justify screwing one individual over; races don't think and don't have feelings: people do. That poor white person would be getting doubly screwed: once, because of his lower class status, and twice because the lower class minority has an advantage over him as well. It's the INDIVIDUAL that matters, and correcting things on an individual basis.

    Besides, the US is a meritocracy. Companies, etc, shouldn't suffer because of irrelevant difficulties.

    If you think that minorities are inherently disadvantaged by position... that's a different story. You ask for alternative solutions. Ok, here's mine: Invest about $50 billion per year in community development. I mean, go all out: jobs programs for underpriviledged teens, education for parents, after school programs, revitalizing the slums, more headstart, more scholarships... everything. After 30 years of that, problem solved.

    Oh, and finally... quotas are still technically illegal, but they're actively in effect, especially for college admissions. A couple years ago, for instance, Tufts accepted fewer African-Americans than the year before. There was a *furor*; nothing could be proved, but there *was* a correction the next year. Generally, most colleges do have a *red line* below which they won't let minority enrollment dip, no matter what.

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    Boston College - NCAA Hockey National Champions 2001

    [This message has been edited by haven (edited May 15, 2001).]
     

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