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This Undecided has Decided . . .

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Rileydog, Sep 30, 2008.

  1. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    . . . for now at least.

    Here's a high level breakdown of the issues that matter to me. I'd invite folks to attempt to sway my views. Perhaps i have some facts wrong. I'm not a politico by nature, but it's impossible not to be engaged this go around. Scroll down to the bottom for my decision. . .

    ===============

    Social Policy/civil rights - Obama is the candidate. I'm socially moderate. Into this admittedly broad category, I have bundled a bunch of things, including abortion, anticipation of the need to nominate multiple Supreme Court Justices, and the general intolerance and social a-holedness by the religious right/Palin.

    Fiscal Policy/Economy - McCain wins. I'm fiscally conservative. Disagree with Obama's tax plan. In this economy, I don't want disincentives to put money into the market. I'm not for bigger government. I'd be a little less concerned with obama's views/plans if there was a Replublican controlled Congress to keep things in check. McCain's no economist, so I'm assuming he will be guided by Republican advisors with that are fiscally conservative.

    Universal Health Care - Obama wins. Tough issue, but in the end, I view this particular issue as more of a social than fiscal issue. I don't really like heavy involvement of govt in medical care, but in this case, it's worth it because our country is a better place with universal health care. So long as I can get more/better health care at my own election, I'm fine with UHC.

    War in Iraq/Foreign Policy - McCain wins. I agree with his view and give him the nod in experience. Granted, Bush is an idiot and the Bush doctrine sucks. However, Obama strikes me as possibly too soft; from his reaction to the Georgia/Russia issue, it looks like he would prefer to broker a deal or compromise, than to take a hard stance, even when called for. It's rough to make a generalization about a guy on so little, but that's the price you pay for a short track record.

    Energy/Environment - McCain wins. Agree with his views. Like his Experience and body of work. Expand drilling. Ethanol subsidy is stupid. Contrarian to republicans on climate change.

    VP Choice - Obama wins big. Palin is poorly versed at best, and possibly an religious nut and idiot. Palin is a cndidate to top Bush's stupidity. Big ding on McCain for choosing Palin purely to round up the religious right/ultraconservative a-holes. He put that ahead of the best interests of the country. I'm fine with Biden as VP, which is relevant because, sadly, I think Obama might not survive a presidency.

    Character - tie. I view both men to be of pretty high character. I don't care about McCain's divorce. I don't give much credence to Obama's minister's issues.

    Intellect - Obama wins.

    Risk/reward - Tie. Relative to my views, Obama has the greater potential to improve the country and the greater potential to screw things up. Obama doesn't have a long record and I don't know how liberal Obama will be. Obama's innate leadership qualities has the potential to galvanize the country, which gives him upside potential. McCain, I think you have a better idea of what you're going to get. It's more of a question of whether you like it. Less potential to lead the country to greater heights, but less risk of screwing up the joint (relative to my views). I think he will have a 4 year term (if he doesn't die) and will return to his more moderate views and do more of what he wants, rather than cater to the religious right. (as an aside, I used to think there's a limit to how much a President could screw things up. Then Bush Jr. comes along . . .).

    =============

    Conclusion:

    It's very, very close. If I were to vote today, I would vote Obama. The choice boils down to the relative importance assigned to the issues above. At the end of the day:

    - domestic issues outweigh foreign concerns
    - social issues/health care outweigh fiscal issues
    - Palin, combined with McCain's age/health, is a killer. If McCain had picked a moderate, my vote would likely flop.
    - It's not an easy choice because Obama would hurt my household financially, as well as my employer.

    I look forward to Clutchfans comments, particularly those from folks that are seriously committed to one candidate or the other.
     
  2. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost not wrong
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    Your opinions seem very close to mine, only I give Obama more credit in the FP arena and McCain less on the economy.
     
  3. Harrisment

    Harrisment Member

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    Good post, thanks for that.

    I'm right there with you on a lot of these. I am curious though to hear more about McCain's views on the environment and why you favor them. Is the only real difference between the candidates on that issue that McCain supports expanded drilling and Obama doesn't?
     
  4. peleincubus

    peleincubus Member

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    i thought the U.S. only had about 4% of the worlds oil. how is that really going to help us in the long run, because that really is a drop in the bucket. it seems wiser to find other solutions then that.

    im not saying that we shouldnt drill for more oil. im just saying that there are other factors, of which seem more important.
     
  5. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    One thing that really bothers me about Obama: if you don't have experience, you must rely on those you appoint around you to pick up the slack. Take a look at what the democratic congress has done - including the botch job that Pelosi orchestrated this week on the bailout bill. That's scary, folks. A good number of those people would be advising Obama. No thanks.
     
  6. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    McCain is more moderate, Obama more liberal. That suits me. My wife is an environmental lawyer and democrat, and she has noted that McCain has been a leader on climate change and other key environmental initiatives, which is particularly impressive since he has a republican party to answer to.

    More drilling isn't a huge issue because it's not a huge part of the long term solution. that said, it doesn't mean you don't do it (if you favor it, which I do).

    The ethanol subsidy is r****ded and McCain's opposition to it is important to me.
     
  7. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    Yeah, my views on economy/fiscal policy are party driven and less about the candidates. I think obama knows a lot more about the subject than mccaiin, but I'm fiscally conservative.
     
  8. Rileydog

    Rileydog Contributing Member

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    I'll add to that. during the Dem primary, one of the news outlets interviewed Obama's foreign policy advisor (forget the name, was a relatively young african american gal). The lady was clueless, completely bombed the questions, became incomprehensible, spoke faster, then ended by saying we're not here to discuss the issues. We're here to celebrate the moment. That's nearly verbatim.

    I just have a general problem with clueless people that choose to get in front of a camera.. .
     
  9. Franchise2001

    Franchise2001 Contributing Member

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    The "experience" factor pretty much went out the door with the ridiculous choice of Palin. Regardless of whether Obama is experienced or not, he has the intellect and knowledge of an amazing array of issues to make up for some of the holes on his resume. McCain says "He just doesn't get it/understand" but Obama proved him wrong in the first debate.

    Still 2 debates to go and the undecideds could definitely flip-flop on their positions. Things that could factor:

    Swing from Obama to McCain:
    1. McCain throws the sink at Obama with a new string of attack ads.
    2. McCain dominates the 2nd or 3rd debate.
    3. Palin redeems herself in the VP debate.

    Swing from McCain to Obama:
    1. The market continues to crash and the congress continues its partisan BS.
    2. McCain fails to mount a significant character/policy flaw attack on Obama.
    3. Obama holds his own in the debates. He doesn't need to dominate, but only needs to look presidential.

    There are def more...

    Rileydog,

    I will make a small argument for Obama. Like you, I am a fiscal conservative & socially "liberal." I feel like this past week has shown the character of the two and what we can expect from their presidencies.

    McCain suspended his campaign and went to Washington (after lying to a major TV figure to do an interview with another) to "save the country." We didn't hear his ideas on the matter and later found out that he hadn't even read the initial Fed plan before his trip to Washington. Like Letterman said "something stinks."

    Obama did not suspend his campaign and went to the White House when the President asked him to do so. Obama read the plan. Obama wanted to debate and discuss the crisis at hand with McCain.

    I don't blame either candidate for the failure of the first bailout vote. Between each congressman/woman wanting to save their own hide and each party being mildly fractured, I don't think either candidate had the power to single handedly influence the outcome.

    So what did the candidates do afterwards?

    1. McCain played the blame game. It was Obama's fault for playing politics and caused the vote to fail.

    2. Obama asked for calm and for both sides to work together.

    Who used the better judgment and who was more presidential?

    I'll take the guy that looks me in the eye when he talks to me ;)
     
  10. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

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    Thats nice. After McCain's actions this week and especially today, this decided is about to undecide.
     
  11. Harrisment

    Harrisment Member

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    What from today are you referring to?
     
  12. Zboy

    Zboy Contributing Member

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    I have been out of loop today. What happened today to make you "undecide"?
     
  13. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    What planet are you living on, because it's not Earth. Obama blew a gasket and threw an immature fit in the closed door meeting with Bush and McCain. He acted like a total child. His faux-leadership has been anything BUT bi-partisan in this crisis and he has impacted ZERO change. Leaders with no credibility aren't leaders. They are bloviating egotistical maniacs. Obama just doesn't have the credibility to get legislators to act. That much is clear. He has in no way been constructive through this crisis. And his attempts to funnel money to ACORN are just beyond the pale.
     
  14. Zboy

    Zboy Contributing Member

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    How the caditates run the campaign is tied to character, IMO. Before this campaign I thought highly of McCain. However, his actions and words recently suggest that he will do anything it takes to win the election. He has asked for help from the very people that annihilated his character years ago. He has flat out lied multiple times. The sex ad was down right sleazy.

    Based on all this, I don't think character is a tie anymore. Before the election, perhaps, but not anymore.
     
  15. Franchise2001

    Franchise2001 Contributing Member

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    http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-campaign30-2008sep30,0,5361460.story

    Obama said look at McCain's record, but said there is plenty of blame to go around.

    McCain put the blame squarely on Obama and the democrats.

    BIG DIFFERENCE Teh_Conqueefstadork

    Almost forgot not to feed the trolls, so I give Kitty_Jorge a big, fat

    [​IMG]

    Your credibility on this board = 0.
     
  16. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

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    His threatening of House Republicans and panicky speeches about the bailout. It's decidedly Unpresidential. (Don't worry I won't vote for Obama. I'll find some random third-party candidate and cast a protest vote first.)
     
  17. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking
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    You can't even read your own quoted article correctly. What a hilarious failure of a rebuttal. That's a sign that you belong in the Hangout.

    Obama's got some real Einsteins on his side, huh guys? Wow.
     
  18. Franchise2001

    Franchise2001 Contributing Member

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    Good ole Elitist_Jorge pulling the "I'm so smart and you are not" card...

    So sorry for incomplete summary. So sorry for lack of intelligence. You are master of bulletin board and smartest man alive.

    Oh jorgeepoo... how you complete me!
     
  19. Franchise2001

    Franchise2001 Contributing Member

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    Rileydog,

    I apologize for derailing your thread that deserves attention and discussion. It's refreshing to see voters with an open mind. I've been an Obama supporter since the beginning of the primary because I felt that we needed something dramatically different from the monkey we have now. If your vote swings back to McCain, I'm sure you'll have valid reasons for it.
     
  20. bucket

    bucket Member

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    You honestly think McCain has a better grasp of the economy?
     

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