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How does Morey define elite?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by justtxyank, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Here's how I would define it, I'd look at every championship team since 1980 and write down the name of their three best players. Not a perfect formula, by any means, but it's a place to start. There would be outliers, of course, Dreams' first Championship and the 2004 Pistons come to mind, but it should give you a general idea.
     
  2. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    80 : Kareem, Magic, Wilkes/Nixon (could say rookie magic was lower pre finals)
    81 : Bird, Parish, Maxwell (rookie Milk Hair)
    82 : Magic, Kareem, Wilkes/Nixon
    83 : Moses, Dr J, Toney/Cheeks/Jones (this team had 5 all stars)
    84 : Bird, Mchale, Parish
    85 : Magic, Kareem, Worthy
    86 : Bird, Mchale, Parish
    87 : Magic, Kareem, Worthy
    88 : Magic, Worthy, Kareem
    89 : Thomas, Dumars, Dantley (+Laimbeer/Rodman)
    90 : Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer/Rodman
    91 : Jordan, Pippen, Grant
    92 : Jordan, Pippen, Grant
    93 : Jordan, Pippen, Grant
    94 : Hakeem, I don't want this argument
    95 : Hakeem, Drexler, Ditto
    96 : Jordan, Pippen, Rodman
    97 : Jordan, Pippen, Rodman
    98 : Jordan, Pippen, Rodman
    99 : Duncan, Rodman, Elliott
    00 : Shaq, Kobe, Rice
    01 : Shaq, Kobe, Fisher (i hate myself)
    02 : Shaq, Kobe, Fisher
    03 : Duncan, Parker, Robinson
    04 : Wallace, Chauncey, Rip
    05 : Duncan, Parker, Manu
    06 : Shaq, Wade, UD (?)
    07 : Duncan, Parker, Manu
    08 : Garnett, Pierce, Allen
    09 : Kobe, Pau, Bynum (Odom)
    10 : Kobe, Pau, Bynum
    11 : Dirk, Chandler, (Terry, Matrix, Butler, Kidd?)
    12 : Lebron, Wade, Bosh
    13 : Lebron, Wade, Bosh
    14 : Parker, Duncan, the entire roster?

    Over half these teams have at least 3 hall of famers, every team except us, the 99 spurs, the 01 & 02 lakers and 04 pistons and 06 Heat (do we notice a trend for the nba being somewhat weak at the top?) have at least three players who made all nba or all defensive teams and were still very productive, and in only 1 case, 04 did those teams not have someone who was a league mvp and still in or near their prime.
     
    #62 Aleron, Jul 15, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
    1 person likes this.
  3. Koperboy

    Koperboy Member

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    Reading this made me think if Bledsoe is Morey's definition of elite. I think he is right on the verge of someone who is elite by Morey's standards. Does he deserve max? In a vacuum I think not, but with current market prices you probably can't have it for less. And it's interesting how noone pursued Bledsoe, but Parsons has been offered the max while both teams who owned them made it clear they will match any offer.
     
  4. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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    IMO he think this way:
    A guy on someone else team, highly payed ,highly chased & willing to move to another team...
     
  5. Raven

    Raven Member

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    The question is whether the 94 Rockets, 04 Pistons and (arguably) this years Spurs proves that you don't need three stars. I don't think so. I think the big three is still the formula you try to emulate. Still, the Rockets can't wait forever. Like I said in another post, Dwight isn't getting any healthier.
     
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  6. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Lots of good contributions in here.

    When you look at the exceptions to the rule that are cited you can come up with:
    94 Rockets
    04 Pistons
    Miami Heat first title
    Lakers trilogy
    (Some say this year's Spurs team but I dismiss that personally)

    With the exception of the Pistons (who I'll address later) those other teams have something in common. Absolutely dominant MVP players. Dream for the Rockets, Kobe and Shaq for the Lakers and then Wade and Shaq for the Heat.

    Neither Harden nor Howard is in the class of prime Dream, prime Kobe, prime Wade or prime Shaq. I think when you have the absolute best player in their prime you can clearly compensate for not having the "Big 3" model. We don't have that.

    The Pistons are sort of a fluke to me. They were in the weak east that was producing teams like the Nets, Pacers, etc. that were getting bounced in the Finals with ease. The year they finally go there they ran into a perfect storm. A Lakers team that saw Malone blow out his knee and that was struggling to work together with their new parts.
    Th
     
  7. Blake

    Blake Contributing Member

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    Since when did 16.5 points and half ass defense become "elite"?
     
  8. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
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    Morey said there was very few exceptions to that formula. If he was just talking about the past 10 years or so, then his sample size would be terribly small. There were at least 2 exceptions after the Shaq-Kobe Lakers. That's a 20% rate of exception.

    As a statistics expert, I don't think Morey would make that kind of erroneous claim.
     
  9. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    Bev, Canaan, Johnson
    Harden, Daniels, Hopson
    Ariza, (Papanikolaou), Covington, Gee
    Jones, Motiejunas, Powell
    Howard, Dorsey, Capela
     
  10. i3artow i3aller

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. OlajuwonFan81

    OlajuwonFan81 Member

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    I don't have an issue with his opinion that Parsons is not elite. I do however think that you can win with 2 elite players and quality role players.

    Morey apparently doesn't feel the same. I think if we would have signed Ariza and a quality back up big like Birdman then matched Parsons we would have the potential to be a championship contender.
     
  12. Rip Van Rocket

    Rip Van Rocket Contributing Member

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    I think the question should be, can Morey recognize elite talent when he sees it. He guessed right with Harden, that's for sure. But how about Lowry and Dragic. Morey had both of these players and he traded one and let the other one get away. He then sign Jeremy Lin.

    Morey is not a basketball man, he's a numbers man.
     
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  13. Matt78777

    Matt78777 Contributing Member

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    This. I mean, sort of.

    I'm sure the Rockets have their own proprietary version of PER, WAR, RPM, etc; an advance stat that measures the difference players make on the court, taking into account offense and defense, then adjusting for situational variables. They have a big spreadsheet somewhere that ranks everyone in the league. They can sort by position (but probably by positions they made up), by value of contract measured against production, age, etc. By studying the trends of past winning teams, they have come up with a number that each player must hit to be considered "elite."

    Not a sexy answer I know, but it's probably closer to the truth (but I also bet anything the trust is wayyyy more complicated than that).
     
  14. Remii

    Remii Member

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    Once you look at the 3 elite players... Then you would have to look at the crew around them including the bench players. And also the quality of the head coach.

    I really don't think there's a perfect formula. 3 elite players is just the formula Morey wants to use.
     
  15. DudeWah

    DudeWah Member

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    The thing wrong with this argument is that Morey was the one who recognized Lowry's and Dragic's potential in the first place. They were back-up players before Morey picked them up. And they became "stars" while on the Rockets.
     
  16. LabMouse

    LabMouse Member

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    You are right on Lowry, but the rockets have to trade him for a pick to get Harden, there is no a problem here. As for Dragic, Morey said on the radio that he made a mistake, would not let him go if he knew that he is that good.

     
  17. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Maybe he needs to listen to coaches a bit more
    but overall he is pretty good

    In a sense I think the 3 Elites = Minimize the impact of coaching
    i.e. Spoelstra

    Rocket River
     
  18. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    As I said, it was contingent on having an mvp, which we don't have. But at the same time, the odds are low, we might have been able to win with Parsons, but listening to Morey I get the feeling he views 30% or so as a somewhat safe bet to win a title and we would have been nowhere near that.

    How good does a 3rd player need to be? well he feels that Ibaka is, but then Durant's mvp influence moves the needle further, so I don't know
     
  19. daoshi

    daoshi Contributing Member

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    I think a player 'elite' if,
    a. He is better than most at his position, both offensively and defensively, or
    b. He is a dominated player on one end, and average on the other end.

    Both Rodman & Harden are very close to the category b, most others fall into category a.
     
  20. douglasreedy1

    douglasreedy1 Member

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    This...furthermore, once you get 1 or 2 elite players, criteria for what he considers elite may have to more with how he fits...case in point, I doubt after seeing bosh in Miami, that morey would have offered bosh max if we didn't have Howard and harden already on the roster...I'm not a fan of bosh and think he's been exposed as a third wheel at best in Miami, but considering playing next to Howard would likely bring out the absolute best in him, I agreed with us potentially overpaying him. Also, parsons is not elite and never will be.
     

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