1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Dirk Nowitzki for MVP

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by AroundTheWorld, Jan 13, 2003.

  1. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,632
    Likes Received:
    44,348
    Dirk Nowitzki is emerging as a leading MVP candidate, even if he doesn't think so.

    Nowitzki scored 10 of his 23 points in the final seven minutes as the Dallas Mavericks avoided looking ahead long enough to defeat the Los Angeles Clippers, 96-90, for their sixth straight win.

    This season, the 7-foot Nowitzki has been the best player on the NBA's best team. Down the stretch, he took control of the game and refused to allow the Mavericks to lose after they had blown a 13-point lead.

    "I've always said this team doesn't have an MVP," Nowitzki said. "We have so many guys who can take over and win games for us. Teams like us and Sacramento don't have MVPs; (we) have so many weapons and we're so deep. If you have to give an MVP award out to somebody, it's got to be probably a guy like Jason Kidd."

    "First half of the year, he's a candidate, because he's the best player on the best team" Clippers forward Lamar Odom said. "So you can put him down for MVP."

    (...)

    Nowitzki came in 11th in scoring at 22.6 points and sixth in rebounding at 10.3 per game. In his fourth season, the German sensation has the Mavericks on pace for 70 wins.

    "I don't make those claims or talk about those things," Dallas coach Don Nelson said. "I don't know. Talk to the commissioner. Who votes -- I don't know. ... He's the best player for me."

    "Most nights he is the best player on the court," Nash said. "No matter who we're playing, he's one of the top five players in the world to me. ... I think he is definitely an MVP candidate. Tremendous ability, tremendous focus and commitment. He does a lot for us."




    I agree with Odom and Nellie. What do you think?
     
  2. arno_ed

    arno_ed Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    7,932
    Likes Received:
    1,925
    i was talking to a friend about who should be mvp. we came up with some names.
    like Marion
    duncan
    kidd
    but the person we thought was the best candidate was Nowitzki.
    so i also agree with them and with you.
     
  3. carayip

    carayip Member

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2002
    Messages:
    2,135
    Likes Received:
    20
    My vote goes to Jason Kidd. He's somewhat robbed last year and he's even better this year with surprising scoring and FG%. Dirk is good but I believe Mavs can survive without him more than Nets without Kidd.
     
  4. University Blue

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 1999
    Messages:
    1,657
    Likes Received:
    12
    Sorry, I cannot vote a player the MVP, for his team or the league, if he calls out his own teammate when the team lost in the playoffs.


    University (No Kidding) Blue
     
  5. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,632
    Likes Received:
    44,348
    I thought it was Kenyon Martin who did that? Did Kidd participate in that also?
     
  6. rezdawg

    rezdawg Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2000
    Messages:
    18,351
    Likes Received:
    1,147
    What does that have to do with the MVP race this year? This isnt an award for who is the "kindest and most respectful" teammate. It is an award for who is the most valuable. Jason Kidd is clearly that.
     
  7. 101 6 7

    101 6 7 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    6
    Duncan leads Nowitski in Points, Rebounds, Blocks, FG%, & Assists. Oh, and Timmy actually betters his averages when the Spurs play Dallas - also, be carefull in naming Dallas the "Best Team"; won't know who that is until the final bell sounds. Lakers have been best for 3 seasons now, but only had the best record one time.

    IMO no Dallas player has a shot at MVP: simply too many talented players to say: yes, that guy could put a team on his shoulders and carry them through. Take Dirk off the Mavs; they still make the playoffs, take Duncan off the Spurs, Kidd off the Nets, McGrady off the Magic, Shaq off the Lakers, Garnett off the Wolves, ALL of those teams enter the LeBron sweepstakes.
     
  8. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,496
    Likes Received:
    56,074
    University Blue,

    Larry Bird called out Danny Ainge a lot.
    Malone called out Ostertag before winning his MVP.
    Jordan calls out his teammates all the time...maybe not by name, at least I can't remember.

    SJC

    I can't stand giving MVPs to guys who are mainly just scorers. I am biased against Dallas as a whole because of their lack of defense in playoffs past, and I think that starts with Nowitzki. He is not as fundamentally sound in an all-around game to Kidd, Garnett, Webber and Duncan. He is just arguably the best scorer of the group.

    If we want to use the "most important to their team" argument, I think Kidd, Duncan and Garnett all surpass him. But there is no denying a 70-win team. If Dallas gets 70 wins, you almost can't NOT give it to him. If they win 65 games, it is hard to deny him.

    However, if you want to use the "best player on best team" argument; imo, the Kings are the best team at full force, and if their record is again the best in the league, or close to it (within 3 games of Dallas), then Webber is the all-around superior player. He is significantly superior in defense and passing ability.

    To me, Nowitski (right now) is like voting for other high scoring hall of famers like McAdoo. I like to vote for more all-around players.
     
  9. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,496
    Likes Received:
    56,074
    So does Webber and Shaq and (almost) Garnett (off by 0.6 pts, otherwise leads all stats, too). Garnett and Webber have 5.6 and 5.1 apg.

    It comes down to voting for the Best non-Shaq Scorer (although, I'd still take Duncan over Nowitski) versus great scorers (in their own right) that have more complete games.
     
  10. BanginScrew

    BanginScrew Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess it all really depends on what you consider to be the MVP.

    Is the MVP the player that is most valuable to his team? Or is the MVP the best player in the NBA. They are not always the same person.

    If you (or whoever votes for the MVP) thinks that it's the most valuable to his team then I don't think Dirk will win it. I think Nash would be a more legit candidate than Dirk if it's most valuable to his team. Although Nash would still be behind Duncan, Kidd, or even KG.

    If the MVP is the best player in the NBA then Dirk has to be given consideration. His defense has improved and his offense is second to none.

    I kind of compare it to the situation in Major League Baseball last year. Alex Rodriguez was obviously the best player in baseball last year however since the award is title Most Valuable Player the award went to the right guy.
     
  11. NYKRule

    NYKRule Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2001
    Messages:
    2,066
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ason Kidd


    And he didn't call out KVH, Martin did. It's a good thing he did, too...Jefferson is much better than KVH will ever wish to be.
     
  12. 101 6 7

    101 6 7 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2002
    Messages:
    384
    Likes Received:
    6
    I disagree; Dirk has a unique offense for a 7 footer, but I don't think it is a "better" offense. Arguments could be made for better post, and perimeter players. Methinks you might be spending a little too much time on the Dallas boards.
     
  13. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,496
    Likes Received:
    56,074
    I would agree that Nitwitz's *shooting* is second to none. But that is far from saying his *offense* is second to none. I don't mean to say he doesn't have a well-rounded offensive game, but Duncan and Shaq are far from being dismissed, because they are significantly superior in the low post. Duncan, Webber and Garnett also run their offenses. Nitwitz is a scorer like McAdoo who is not really going to run an offense for you, just yet. And we haven't even mentioned Kobe or McGrady, either.
     
  14. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,632
    Likes Received:
    44,348
    I don't really want to discuss stats (Dirk's are also "damaged" because he left one game after a few minutes, I think), but the stats (and quotes by his teammates) seem to imply that he improved his defense. He had one game with six steals and averages 1.4 steals, 1.1 blocks and more than 10 rebounds. His free throw percentage is also way better than Duncan's.

    The MVP is always a thing that can be argued back and forth, but saying he is "just a scorer" is not correct.
     
  15. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,496
    Likes Received:
    56,074
    SJC,

    Duncan, Garnett and Kidd have all made first team defense. Shaq is a major force in the middle. Kobe was 1st team D, too. MacGrady is actually better than Kobe. Webber is the best passing PF in the game. Kidd is the best passer in the game.

    In that class, Nitwitz defense and playmaking/passing simply do not rank up. In that class, Nitwitz is "just a scorer" hall-of-fame level...best shooter...whatever you want to say. But he really does not run that offense like Webber, Duncan and Garnett, nor is he anywhere close to being a great defender like these guys.

    Nitwitz is much closer to McAdoo (best big man shooter of his era) than McHale (scorer par excellance, w/defense) in comparisons. None of those three ran an offense, and only McAdoo won an MVP.
     
  16. BanginScrew

    BanginScrew Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    KG is the only one that has better all around number than Dirk (out of those you named). You also have to look at how those players perform in the clutch. Webber and KG dissapear in the clutch. Duncan is the only one other guy (of those you named) than Dirk that is money when the game is on the line.

    When given the chance to lead his team Kobe did a terrible job. He had a few triple doubles but his team lost every one of those games. Kobe appeared to be trying to get the triple double rather than trying to lead his team to victory.

    McGrady forces too many shots. Dirk gets to the line more than any of these guys and shoots in the high 80's from the line.

    All of these guys will obviously be considered for the MVP I just think that Dirk is more deserving.
     
  17. vahe

    vahe Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Lakers won every single game in which Kobe got a triple double (all five of them). Get your facts straight before you spew rubbish.
     
  18. heypartner

    heypartner Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 1999
    Messages:
    62,496
    Likes Received:
    56,074
    BanginScrew,

    Are you really saying Dirk has a better all around game than Mr. Fundamental. Duncan is an MVP. Guy is a 1st Team All Defense. What is it that you see in Dirk more than I see in a 7' version of Bob McAdoo.

    I don't get it. He is nowhere close to the a complete player at the level of Duncan, Webber and Garnett. He is arguably the best scorer of the group, and at a very high level, so I'm not trying to take anything away from him. But you are taking away from Duncan and Webber by calling Dirk more all-around. Just not true. Mr Fundamental and the best passing PF in the game. I don't think so.

    Also, as far as disappearing in the clutch, that's pretty harsh evaluation of Garnett considering he has a weak team and religiously believes in passing everytime he is doubled, and he's always doubled in the clutch. And who says Webber disappears during the regular season. The thing about him is disappearing in elimination series of playoffs. He has a very good record in earlier series.

    Thing is: Nowitzki also fails to shoot well in elimination series, being dispatched 1-4 each time. Check the stats against San Antonio 2 yrs ago, and the Kings last year, then get back to me. His playoff showing shows the same pattern as Webber, failure to play consistently big in the big series. Oh, and Duncan and Webber dominated those last two times Dallas got eliminated.

    Here's the Stats:

    Nowitzki shot against Webber
    8-24 versus 8-19
    7-15 versus 10-23
    6-15 versus 15-26
    9-28 versus 12-15
    13-25 versus 8-14
    for 40%

    Webber outplayed him thoroughly at 55% shooting, because Webber had the more all-around game to play more defense and pass better to run more than a gimmick Dallas transition offense.

    Against San Antonio it was even a worse showing, but we will allow that because Dirk was new to the playoffs.

    Still, Dirk is just like Webber, so far, in that he gets handled in the elimination series, although Webber did much better last year.
     
    #18 heypartner, Jan 14, 2003
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2003
  19. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,632
    Likes Received:
    44,348
    heypartner, you are blaming Nowitzki that he is not producing the same stats as the other guys you mentioned and that "the offense does not run through him". You say he is "just a scorer" and conclude that he is "nowhere close to a complete player" at their level.

    Did you consider that the facts that the offense is not run through him and that his assist stats are lower simply have to do with his role on that team - with Nellie's system? He did sometimes take over this year, getting 7 assists for example, but that is normally simply not his role. Garnett and Duncan have much less playmaking talent around them, so they HAVE to dominate the ball more which will result in higher stats.

    But Nowitzki seems to function perfectly well within the Mavs offense and execute the coach's system exactly as planned, which is a quality in itself that is not reflected in stats - other than their winning record. And that is better than the one of any of the others mentioned.

    What you do is use a fact - that he has better talent around him than the other guys mentioned - twice to Dirk's disadvantage. You criticize him for not having the same assist stats although that is logical since he has better playmaking talent around him, but at the same time you imply that the Mavs' better record is based on exactly that playmaking talent rather than on Dirk leading them. So you don't accept using the fact that he has better playmakers on his team as a "defense" for lower assists, but you use it to portray him as a less deserving MVP candidate ("he does not carry the team as much as the other guys").

    Hmmm...whatever your agenda is - the motivation for doing that - it is clearly not fair.

    It's simple. Odom said it. Best team, best record, best player on that team.

    M - V - P.
     
    #19 AroundTheWorld, Jan 14, 2003
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2003
  20. AroundTheWorld

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    66,632
    Likes Received:
    44,348
    And you could do me a favor by stopping to call him "Nitwitz", it's so transparent that you just do that to piss me off. I am pretty sure you would not appreciate it too much if people came on here continuously calling Steve "Fransh!t" or Mobley (your favorite Rocket) "Moronley" or something like that.
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now