Harden's great, no doubt. But Dream warped the floor in a way Harden does not. And since basketball is a flowing game, it must be pointed out that the offense built around Dream was also a great offense for transitioning to defense. Specifically, stopping the fast break with the 3-point shooters already in good position to get back, which meant Dream could beat his man down the court, get in position, and warp the floor defensively too. All that said, Harden is still young and already on the Rockets All-Time Team. He's going to be fun to watch the next few years.
Until Harden has a season where he hits 42% from the 3 point line like Hakeem did in 1993 then he'll never be close to Hakeem's greatness.
And to answer it another way, one has to look at the WILL, ENERGY, EFFORT, DETERMINATION and other things to understand how hard it is to DOMINATE on BOTH ends of the court as the #1 Rebounder, #1 Shot Blocker, and #1 Scorer for two championship teams. So then to take that player's offensive game and try to separate it and compare it to another player's offensive game that doesn't compare in all those other categories, and hasn't won a chip yet, is sort of disrespectful to that player, i.e. Hakeem. What could Hakeem done offensively IF he didn't also control, take over the game, and do on the defensive end utilizing so much of his energy? Then maybe it wouldn't be so disrespectful to try and compare the two. I love Harden as a player and on this team, but let's keep his comparison's to Dream off the table until he has carried the team to a CHIP.
Dude, nobody is saying that Harden is a better player than Hakeem. I am only interested in who is the better offensive weapon in VACUUM.
"There are 3 types of lies: lies, d**n lies, and statistics". So, so, so many people need to read this book: http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics-Darrell-Huff/dp/0393310728 This is a situation where one has to look at results, the tape, what older people say, and use some statistics. 1) The tape: Hakeem was doubled, unlike Harden has ever seen. He made people look silly. The difficulty on his points is greater than Harden. Yes, scoring on DRob is harder than on Monta Ellis and JJ Reddick. 2) The (some) statistics: Playoffs statistics dwarf anything. One man wrecking crew against elite competition. Throw all the OBPM at me all you want, but Harden has nothing on the lessons Hakeem has put in the playoffs. Did Lebron have a bad finals because he didn't shoot so well? Funny we have to talk about offense; we all know Harden is atrocious on defense. But you cannot tell me that anything Harden has done offensively is anywhere close to the playoff runs. When you compare to Hakeem, regular season, for the most part, will go out of the window. 3) What older people say: Hakeem. Consensus. 4) Results: 2 rings, a BBS named after him, God status in Houston. Harden: nowhere close in production. He hasn't even had one full, consistent playoff series where one can legitimately raise this question.
Nah, go back to the first couple of games in the playoffs against the Lakers back during the 89-90 season. Hakeem posted a couple of offensive duds in terms of scoring. Look, I've got no problems with anyone setting people straight about Hakeem. He is the greatest Rocket ever and one of the best players ever. He is quite possibly one of the top 2 or 3 all-around players to play the game. But, I think as time goes on, we do get a bit nostalgic and turn our heroes into infallible, invincible juggernauts of sorts. Hakeem had his flaws, but his skill-level still has yet to be duplicated among big men since. All I have to say is we're seeing Harden develop and I hope he keeps developing into something even better. My only issue is that I've seen on several occasions on offense during the season when a big body (SG/SF type with bulk) d'ed up on him and played him close, he got a bit frustrated. PJ Tucker used to do that to him and frustrate the hell out of him, but at some point, or at least in one subsequent game, Harden destroyed PJ when he tried to do it. He needs to do that consistently. Make those bastards pay. I saw Harden get tired (?), draw into a shell (?), I-don't-know-what in the playoffs and make crazy turnovers like somebody on the Warriors had a gun to his head. He has to step up in those situations... if you can't be the reason we win, don't be among the reasons we lose. That being said, without Harden, we're nowhere for most of the season, so maybe I shouldn't blame him after he carried the team almost the entire season. It was rare for Olajuwon to EVER back down from a challenge. He may not immediately overcome the challenge, but at no point did he shy away someone attacking him. He was like some type of Nigerian Borg. If you got the best of him or presented an obstacle he hadn't encountered, he'd analyze it and then devise a counter. The great players don't let the PJ Tuckers of the world intimidate them or body them. Mark Eaton outweighed Hakeem by 50 pounds - no problem... he took his game outside and challenged the 7'4" monster to guard him out there. Shaq's quickness, strength, size, and power hadn't been seen since the days of Wilt, but Hakeem out-quicked him and neutralized him at least statistically. That was enough for the rest of the team to beat the rest of the Magic. Hakeem didn't fear or back down from Shaq - he wasn't intimidated by him. Kevin Garnett, Roy Tarpley, Donaldson, Daugherty, Shaq, Eaton, Robinson, Ewing, yada yada yada ... they came, then went ... and for each one, Hakeem had something for them. Hakeem had power, speed, quickness, explosiveness, and the tenacity and heart of a warrior. If you didn't have all of these in return to counteract him, he would beat you with one of them. He basically could be whatever player he wanted to be because he was so skilled. Perimeter game, baseline game, inside game, power game, finesse, etc., he turned them on and off at will and as needed. And when the offense wasn't working (and believe me, there were games where the shots just didn't fall) he was still there defensively. The dude was just a complete player. Of course, that's why this thread is a bit restrictive to me ... you're ignoring defense. But that was the stipulation, so I'll ignore defense, except to say that in the 1990 playoffs against the Lakers, in Game 1, Olajuwon shot 5-13 and scored only 13 points, but he had 14 rebs, 3 steals, and 7 blocks. In Game 2 of that series, he shot just 4-15, scored only 11 points, but had 11 rebounds, 2 steals, and 10 freaking blocks! But that's not "offense", technically, right? Harden's game is a thing of beauty to watch, but I watched Hakeem go from what he was at UH to what he became as an All-Time Great, and well, Harden isn't re-inventing anything. He's just damn near unstoppable when he's on. Hakeem was damn-near unstoppable and while doing what he did, you knew he was re-defining the abilities of a big man. Wilt was a basketball mutation, Magic was a basketball mutation, Bird was a basketball mutation, Jordan was a basketball mutation, Hakeem was a basketball mutation, Lebron -- same thing .... Harden? He's a hell of a scorer and a pretty damn good passer, too. He's just not in the class of those other guys. Not yet, anyway. But he's young, and hopefully he's still getting better and one day we'll be able to say he's finally passed Hakeem, but my gut feeling is that day won't come for the simple reason that I stated above ... this thread is just about offense.
So far i think no question Hakeem. However Harden should be hitting his prime for the next 2-4 years and has a chance to be really special.
They play 2 entirely different positions in different eras. Pretty sure they're both very similar on their highest PPG anyway. Man the new season can't get here fast enough.
man, if hakeem played for the knicks and got them those 2 championships, he'd be regarded as the greatest ever. Last player to take a team, no big three, no big two just one man and his dream to be unbeatabol.
Look, my answer to the question is Hakeem, but it is WAY closer than most here are making it sound. The two things I left aren't the only things I disagree with from your posts, but they are the biggest 2. Like Hakeem, Harden is the top priority and defensive focus of our opponents every single game. Harden joined Hakeem as the only player in team history to put up 20+ in acertain amount of consecutive games to start a post season. I can't remember exactly how many games it was, but you get the idea. They both put up points with ease. Hakeem is the reason I love basketball. He will always be my favorite player and no one has come close, but what made him all time special was his defense. At least that's how I have always seen it. Don't get me wrong he was a fantastic offensive player, but his defense was much stronger. Harden continues to be underestimated around here. My guess is if you ask this same question in 10 years the responses won't be so 1 sided. Hope people understand what we have right here and now with Harden. He is an unreal offensive weapon.
Ok - let me preface your initial dismissal by saying I have taken multiple graduate level courses on statistics as part of my Master's and I don't need your random Amazon link to discredit what I said. I've read the book by the way, to garbage and written for the lay person. 1) I agree that low post scoring is harder. But Harden is able to score anywhere on the court. Hakeem was more dominant at his position offensively. But his efficiency wasn't at Harden's level last year. 2) Hakeem had Godlike statistics in some of his playoff runs (PER 39 in '87!!!!!). Harden has a long way to go to even be mentioned in that same conversation. But regular season, for what it's worth, Harden was historically good last year and Hakeem never did that in a regular season. It's my nearly as open and shut as you think. Hakeem had an OBPM of 9 one playoff run but never topped 3 in a regular season. Again - Hakeem was brilliant in the postseason but offensively he played at All Star level during the season. Take it for what it's worth. You may be a Barkley-level denier of statistics but the numbers actually support your playoff argument and I agree. 3) you don't know how old I am, son. I saw all of Hakeem's runs since '86. 4) Hakeem is undoubtedly the better player overall and Harden is likely to never achieve that for his career. But his prowess was defense - he would destroy this league on D. His offense would be great - easily the best of any center - but his efficiency wouldn't approach Curry or Harden. You can argue til you are blue in the face but the post up in general is an inefficient play. Give Hakeem credit for making it more efficient than just about anyone could. So again - for your comprehension - Hakeem is the better player and had some magnificent playoff runs but OFFENSIVELY never equalled what Harden did last year. But this isn't a question of who's better or who's done more or anything. It's simply - who's better on offense? And you can get specific and say Hakeem in the playoffs and Harden - for one year - in the regular season. And the stats support all that, FYI.
I'll add that this thread is kind of dumb in that it only serves to divide Rockets fans. Hakeem will always be our guy. But at multiple times he threatened to leave the Rockets high and dry. Winning a couple rings changed everything. Harden might bolt after this contract too, you never know in this league anymore. Loyalty goes a long way in fan perception. At any rate Hakeem will always be our guy and Harden is our guy so why argue who's better on O?
harden was more efficient because back then you got plowed going in the lane. There was no flopping. Divac was around but it was just cute, not a full flopping revolution yet. And with all the traffic dream generated, it allowed shooters for wide open shots. That should count in efficiency rating. Not to mention, he was also the best defensive player. harden can barely make it through a game hung over. Dream made it through months with no food and water just embracing the heavens. you're trying to compare a god to a great player right now.
Statistics don't lie but they can be taken in the wrong context since correlation doesn't always equal causality. its tough to compare players from different eras because the rules are so different and the players have changed with it. Could Harden deal with hand checking back in the 90s? Could Hakeem deal with zone defenses now? Hakeem was the best center in an era of great centers. Harden is one of the best guards in an era full of great guards. Rockets are lucky to have both. Maybe twenty years from now there will be a statue with just a beard outside whatever arena the Rockets are playing in.
Hakeem got quadruple teamed. I rarely saw Harden get triple teamed. The game today is changed for guards, you can't hand check. It's always tougher for lower post players to score.
it doesn't divide fans, some fans saw hakeem play cause they were older. dream didn't just win multiple championships, he won the mvp and defensive player of the year in the same year, he's enshrined in the hall of fame and there's a statue of his jersey in front of the building. that being said, hakeem played for what? 17 years with the Rockets if harden stays that long, he'll get a statue too
Great point I rooted for any player that put on a Rockets uniform to Derick Chevious to Dream. I just want us to win another title!!
