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Stand Your Ground

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by rocketsjudoka, Mar 22, 2012.

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  1. Major

    Major Member

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    The other thing that is really being lost here is that this is also a result of having stupid people armed, and encouraging them to think its their job to enforce the law.
     
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  2. Kyrodis

    Kyrodis Contributing Member

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    Unfortunately, the defense could make the argument that Zimmerman didn't follow and confront Martin with the intent to kill. The act of following and confronting might've been stupid, but doesn't automatically indicate mens rea. The prosecutor could potentially argue that it was reckless or negligent though.

    Once the fight started, the defense would then make the case that Zimmerman had the "right to be there" because it was a public place, "had no obligation to retreat", and "reasonably thought he was preventing a forcible felony."

    It's just a terribly written law. The way our justice system works, there's a good chance Zimmerman could avoid criminal liability.
     
  3. Classic

    Classic Member

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    Seems like issue 1A
     
  4. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    If Zimmerman isn't convicted that will show that such a scenario that I outlaw is reasonable under the Stand Your Ground law as is. In fact the situation that I outline is stronger than Zimmerman's given that I would see the dog whereas the Zimmerman didn't see anything that is obviously a threat.
     
  5. False

    False Member

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    Not saying there is not any prosecutor malfeasance in this case, but the problem with this law is that by making the crime harder to prove, it inherently makes the prosecutor less likely to charge the crime. This can create the appearance of malfeasance when the result is so contrary to what people intuitively feel is right or wrong. For example, in 2006 Jacksonville ran a piece concerning this very law where the State Office of State Attorney Harry Shorstein commented that the law had already had an impact in the following cases in Duval County, in which prosecutors either filed no charges or reduced charges:

    Source: Deadly Force Law has an Effect, but Florida hasn't become the Wild West

    I would disagree with his assertion that the passage of a law in 2005 gave people in 2006 the a greater propensity of use deadly force, but that's not the crux of why his argument is important. Given that the prosecutors were already talking about how these laws bound their hands back in 2006 in certain cases of self-defense, it seems more likely to me that their claim that the law affected their decision to charge is most of the story.

    Major, I agree with you the 2nd Amendment is as always the Elephant in the Room. Unfortunately it is likely something that we are never getting rid of. We can however do our duty to not enact laws such as this one and repeal the ones we already have on the books. If this guy gets off, I hope the rage is not completely spent on accusing the prosecutor's office of racism, but that a large portion is spent attacking laws such as these "Stand Your Ground" laws that make deadly force legally permissible. The gun lobby would actually be more for people thinking that law enforcement wont protect them, then us focusing on their hand in getting these laws passed and the looming 2nd Amendment issue. Because hey, if law enforcement won't protect us, then we need us some more guns to keep us safe.
     
  6. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    Zimmerman does have a right to be in public as much as Martin does, to follow Martin in public and under free speech the right to confront him. No obligation to retreat in a self-defense situation is the same as putting yourself in the situation since even under common law you can confront people but the key thing is once you feel you are under a threat you have to attempt to retreat. Stand Your Ground removes that legal justification so if you choose to remain you are putting yourself into a dangerous situation.

    In the case of Zimmerman he was warned ahead of time not follow or confront Martin. That is his right to ignore that warning, providing he and Martin remain in public, the problem though is that if he felt that Martin was a threat that possibly warranted the use of deadly force under a retreat law he would have to retreat. Under Stand Your Ground he is under no obligation to and evidently felt that way.

    You are correct that under a law mandating retreat deadly force could be used but under that law it is clear that deadly force is the last option when other options aren't available. Stand Your Ground makes it legal to use deadly force as the first option.
     
  7. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    Yes we agree on what retreating means but "putting yourself in a dangerous situation" to me is confronting him in the first place, it has nothing to do with not retreating once it turns deadly. And no laws I am aware of make you attempt to retreat, they just say you are only still justified if a reasonable person would have NOT retreated. Big difference there.

    Hypothetical:

    Guy has his house burgled last week, then gets a call that his friend just had the same thing happen to him a few minutes ago. Looking out the window he spots a scruffy guy walking down the sidewalk. If he shouts and confronts the person, he has in my opinion put himself into a dangerous situation. Now if the person he confronts pulls a knife and says "Hello, I plan to stab and kill you" deadly force is justified.

    Assuming Stand Your Ground law: Law enforcement doesn't need to consider if the homeowner acting reasonably should have chosen to retreat.

    Assuming previous law: They will need to consider it. If the homeowner has a bum knee or is elderly, or much smaller less athletic whatever they assume no he could not have retreated.

    What you are saying is the guy with a fake leg would have to attempt to run even if he knows he has a low chance of escape.
    What I am saying is Stand Your Ground only came into play AFTER he was in a dangerous situation, and it made the decision making much easier.
     
  8. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    I agree the law from that state is not written well but I like the no retreat laws in general.

    I think it takes out the subjective nature of the "reasonable person" clause because that can mean different things to different people.

    If someone has a 95% chance of living if they choose to retreat, it would seem reasonable that they should have retreated.

    If someone has a 96% chance of living by countering with their own deadly force, vs a 95% chance of living by retreating, it is reasonable they should have used deadly force.

    There is just no way to show that, or prove how you felt at the time about your best chance to live.
     
  9. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    I think you're pointing to the biggest issue with the case. In the Joe Horn case the burden was on him to prove self-defense.

    In this case, the police department argued that Martin had to prove that Zimmerman wasn't acting in self defense. Aside from the fact that Martin can't testify since he's dead, the absurdity that the guy who is dead has the burden of proof is a tragedy.

    Regardless of how you feel about the stand your ground law (and I agree its a terrible piece of legislation), I'm curious how anyone can justify how the police approached the case. They still should have arrested Zimmerman under the assumption that it was a murder. I dont see how you can give deference to a self-defense claim over murder.
     
  10. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    I have not seen anything in the law that changes the burden of proof to the prosecution. It doesn't do that at all, it just modifies the conditions where deadly force is justified.
     
  11. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    It didn't but the Samford police department chose to interpret it that way and the state still hasn't done anything about it.

    What is troubling is the attorney general still hasn't reprimanded the local police department nor has the office chosen to take on the case yet.
     
  12. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    No, they said that all of their evidence showed Zimmerman used "force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031" retreating only comes into play if he was justified in the first place.

    Brady group is using this case and it has no bearing. If it can be shown that Zimmerman was not in a position that a reasonable person would consider it necessary to shoot Martin for self defense, retreat or standing ground doesn't matter, at all.

    From reading the thread it seems most people believe that no reasonable person would ever believe that yet then they blame Stand Your Ground.
     
  13. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Even without this case gun related deaths have almost tripled since the law went into effect. That's horrible.
     
  14. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    That's just a flat out lie. Do you seriously believe crap like this?
     
  15. meh

    meh Contributing Member

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    All this media coverage on this law does for me is that I'm better off driving to places than walking to places. After all, it's much easier to claim self-defense when the other's guy dead and no one else is around. So I'm glad for the Martin case which notified me that people can shoot me for no reason, claim self-defense because there are no witnesses, and get away with it.

    Given that the country allows idiots to run around with weapons that easily kill, it's best to just not put myself in a position where one of them may actually pull one on me.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    You can doubt the statistics I quote. But do yourself and the rest of us a favor. Don't call me a liar.

    http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-20/...shooting-deadly-force-shooting-death?_s=PM:US

    The stats come from the Florida department of law. If you have different ones, then provide them. If the statistics I got are wrong, I'd be happy to know that, and I'll acknowledge it.

    But don't accuse me of lying. I'm giving the statistics I've found in what I've researched.
     
  17. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    When someone posts something so obviously wrong I usually think either they are too dumb to know it is wrong, or they are lying and don't believe it. I asked if you actually believed what you said.

    This is flat out false. You can acknowledge that now.
     
  18. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I have no reason to believe the statistics I posted are false. If you have reason to doubt them, please provide them. I believe what I posted was correct, and the statistics provided by the Florida Department of Law are accurate. You've provided nothing that would cause me to doubt them yet.
    ---------edit----------
    Is your problem with the technicality that it's justifiable homicides and not only specifically gun related deaths? I'll freely acknowledge that my wording may not have been specific enough. Yet the slight change doesn't affect the spirit of what I posted one single bit.
     
  19. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    It totally changes the spirit. Can you really not see how?
     
  20. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    I'm not even trying to be a jerk or mean. Just think about what the differences are between gun related deaths, and justifiable homicide. You have one minor difference, justifiable homicide doesn't mean firearms. Think bigger.
     

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