1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Mexican Drug Violence, Houston Gun Stores

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by pgabriel, Nov 30, 2008.

  1. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2002
    Messages:
    42,755
    Likes Received:
    2,987
    This is an article in the chroncile linking Mexican Drug violence to guns purchased at Houston Gun Shows. For those who don't know, the chronicle publishes about one article a week on the increasing violence south of the border both cartel vs. cartel, and cartels vs. the the mexican gov't. There was also a reporter killed recently.

    http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/6139075.html

    Weapons sold in Houston kill in Mexico
    Plentiful shops, border proximity make the city the go-to market for drug cartels
    By DANE SCHILLER
    Copyright 2008 Houston Chronicle
    Nov. 29, 2008, 11:24PM

    Guns used in execution linked to Houston store Drug cartel gangsters waging a criminal insurgency against Mexican society and government are making the Houston area their marketplace of choice, as they spend millions of dollars statewide buying military-style weapons and ammunition.

    Gangsters have honed in on this city because of its glut of gun shops, its proximity to the border, and its long-established networks for smuggling narcotics into the United States, federal law-enforcement officials said.

    The surge in fraudulent purchases comes as more than 4,000 people have died in Mexico's criminal underworld violence this year.

    Authorities can point to numerous crimes, including the infamous 2007 Acapulco Massacre to illustrate the carnage brought on by Houston-bought guns that have gotten into the hands of ruthless killers.

    The need for arms is increasing as Mexican drug cartels are battling one another and the government after President Felipe Calderon made restoring the rule of law his priority upon taking office two years ago.

    "Our investigations show Houston is the top source for firearms going into Mexico, top source in the country," said J. Dewey Webb, special agent in charge of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' Houston division.

    The agency known as ATF is trying to bring down at least three cells here it contends supply weapons to the Gulf Cartel, according to documents filed in local U.S. District Court.

    Since 2007, when the investigation was launched after an audit of a gun store's sales records, agents working with Mexican counterparts have traced at least 328 Houston-bought firearms to those cells.

    The ATF knows when and where some guns were used to kill police, gangsters and others in Mexico, according to the documents.

    During a 15-month period in 2006 and 2007, 22 alleged conspirators paid $352,134 — in cash — for guns. The ATF contends:

    •A Bushmaster carbine, a civilian version of the M-16 assault rifle, bought at an Academy sporting goods store on South Gessner was used last year by drug gangsters who disguised themselves as soldiers to massacre four police officers and three secretaries in Acapulco.
    •A similar rifle was sold at a Carter's Country gun store in July 2006 and recovered two months later in central Mexico after the murder of a cattle buyer kidnapped at a small-town soccer match. At least 45 assault rifles were sold by Carter's Country to three members of the gun-purchasing group, according to court documents.
    •Guns traced to Houston were used in a shootout last March that killed 11 gangsters in the Guatemala highlands.

    Carter's Country, Academy and other stores are not charged with wrongdoing. They declined to comment and would not say whether changes have been made to derail cartel efforts to buy guns.

    Andrew Molchan, director of the Professional Gun Retailers Association, said members are aware fraudulent buyers are out there and are encouraged to ask more questions than the law requires to evaluate customers.

    "Regardless of the business — banks, doctors or whatever — if somebody starts to commit fraud it's very difficult for any business or retailer to combat that," he said.

    The task may be difficult, but U.S. officials have an obligation to do more to keep guns on this side of the border, Mexican authorities say.

    "All the weapons the drug syndicates are using in Mexico come across the border from the United States," Arturo Sarukhan, Mexico's ambassador to the United States, said during a visit to the Houston Chronicle.

    Indeed, Mexican officials estimate 90 percent of nearly 27,000 weapons seized from stash houses or recovered from crime scenes in the past two years originated in the United States.

    Mexican agents in early November found 500,000 rounds of ammunition and 540 guns at a stash house in Reynosa, across the border from McAllen. Preliminary information indicates many of the guns came from the Houston area.

    "It is more weapons than you would need to supply an army," Attorney General Eduardo Medina-Mora said in a recent speech.

    Mexico's weapons laws are far stricter than those in the United States, making it difficult for civilians to purchase guns and ammunition. U.S. citizens crossing into Mexico have been sent to prison for having accidentally left guns or ammunition in their vehicles.

    Still, with Mexican border inspections often haphazard, and with corruption rampant, thousands of guns and loads of ammunition are believed sneaked across the border monthly.

    To help Mexico keep drugs out of the United States, the U.S. government needs to increase the number of federal agents fighting weapons trafficking, Sarukhan said, and to develop better intelligence as to who's buying the guns, where they're buying them and where they're taking them.

    The number of ATF agents assigned to the Houston region, which stretches from near Del Rio to the Gulf Coast, has increased 12 percent in the past two years.

    Current interpretations of the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment, which guarantees the right to bear arms, make such investigations difficult, agents said. Federal law prohibits the government from having a long-term database of weapons or ammunition purchasers.

    Almost always, shops that have sold guns later used in crimes have done nothing illegal.

    U.S. citizens and legal residents who are not convicted of a felony, who say the gun is for their own use, and who meet a few other standards can buy all they want in Texas.

    "There are no flags to be raised because you're not breaking the law," said Rachel Stohl, an expert on small arms smuggling at the Center for Defense Information in Washington, D.C.

    It is up to a gun store owner or sales clerk to decide whether they are being hoodwinked and call authorities.

    "For the same person coming in repeatedly and buying these weapons at that amount of money and probably paying cash, somebody has to stand up and be a good American," said Don Clark, a retired FBI agent who headed the Houston office.

    The ongoing ATF investigation offers a rare glimpse into how Mexican crime syndicates exploit gun laws, as well as what can become of those weapons.

    Agents contend that one of the Houston weapon-procurement cells was led by John Hernandez, a 25-year-old U.S. citizen, an unemployed machinist living with his parents, purchased 23 guns for $24,819.

    Hernandez, who the ATF contends purchased at least one of the guns used in the Acapulco massacre, pleaded guilty to making false statements during the purchase of firearms.

    He is scheduled to be sentenced in January.

    Among the favorite weapons of the cartels is a .223-caliber Bushmaster, which goes for about $1,000 at some Houston gun shops, and can fire rounds capable of piercing body armor.

    Hernandez bought five Bushmasters one day in September 2006 from the Carter's Country on Treaschwig Road in Spring.

    In addition to the guns Hernandez purchased, the ATF contends he had people working for him, including former Klein Forest High School classmates.

    Hernandez is said to have enlisted a 23-year-old former Klein Forest student, who authorities say bought 37 guns for $42,763. His biggest single purchase came on May 12, 2007, when he purchased eight Bushmasters, also from Carter's Country in Spring.

    The ATF's Webb said those who purchase weapons for drug cartels play a key role in the terror cartel hitmen unleash.

    "They are just as responsible for the killing of that person in Mexico, that police officer or innocent bystander as if they had pulled the trigger themselves," he said. "They have blood on their hands, just like that person who pulled the trigger in Mexico."
     
  2. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    56,135
    Likes Received:
    47,976
    Wait, they're coming to America to buy something ?
     
  3. Happy Mac

    Happy Mac Member

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2008
    Messages:
    326
    Likes Received:
    0
    this is why gun shows should be banned or open only to those who have a license to carry a weapon, preferably the former. i have no issues with those who want to purchase legal firearms for legal reasons, but we owe it to everyone to do everything possible to make sure that deadly weapons do not fall into the hands of those who will use them for illegal purposes. just because a right is in the constitution doesn't mean that there cannot be limits on those rights. just like i can't go into a crowded movie theatre yell fire, one shouldn't be able to buy a deadly weapon without being licensed to do so.
     
  4. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    And it's made in America, too. Maybe the end isn't here yet.
     
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,866
    Likes Received:
    36,409
    Gun manufacturers and distributors are known to ship guns to areas bordering areas with high levels of gun violence (as areas with lots of gun violence tend to have more restrictions on selling guns). For example Virginia is apparently the gun supplier for most of the violent crimes in the eastern seaboard as it has the most lenient laws (gun show loophole still exists).

    Does anybody have any problem with this? I understand they will simply cite supply and demand, or claim that they are helping people protect themselves, but if I'm a distributor and I'm moving lots of small calibre handguns to say, northern virginia - I'd be kind of a liar if I said I didn't know what they'd be used for.
     
  6. weslinder

    weslinder Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2006
    Messages:
    12,983
    Likes Received:
    291
    I think they'd probably say that most of their guns are going to people who feel like they need them for personal protection, and they are probably right.
     
  7. KingCheetah

    KingCheetah Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    56,135
    Likes Received:
    47,976
    Made in America means something again.
     
  8. conquistador#11

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2006
    Messages:
    36,073
    Likes Received:
    22,539
    It's time for president felipe calderon to call out the U.S for sponsoring terrorism with gun sales. :p

    If You're that paranoid about being robbed in your own home, just build a panic room. What's a gun going to do? You don't have the range nor the accuracy of a steven segal.
    we really should close all gun dristibutors and pawn shops that sell them. Though hunters would have a problem with that, I really wouldn't.



    But I also know that even if we did prohibit all gun sales, they would just find another supplier from another country.
    Whether you're an Evil Communist or an evil infidel right winger, the $ is always hard to resist.
     
  9. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,866
    Likes Received:
    36,409
    Yeah - I said that already. What about the non-most that aren't? And do you have any stats on this that you can back up your opinion with?
     
  10. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    18,257
    Likes Received:
    13,490
    I've sold several hundred guns and have never recieved a single criminal trace request from the ATF.
     
  11. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,866
    Likes Received:
    36,409
    Have you ever refused to sell one to somebody? I don't know one way or the other I am just asking.
     
  12. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    18,257
    Likes Received:
    13,490
    There have only been a couple of times that I was ever the least bit uncomfortable. In each case the ATF placed 3 day holds on the sales for a more thorough background investigation. The delay for closer scrutiny put my mind at ease and each sale went through. I did have to tell one non-resident alien from Northern Ireland that he couldn't buy a gun, but he wouldn't have passed a background check anyway.

    That having been said, I've never had three guys come in and try to by 45 Bushmasters with cash. I think that would result in refusal, or at least a call to the local ATF branch to discuss the sale.
     
  13. Red Chocolate

    Red Chocolate Contributing Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2001
    Messages:
    1,576
    Likes Received:
    309
    Is this for real?? Why isn't anyone angry about the hundreds of illegal alien criminals that got released from Houston prisons about a month ago? This is government propaganda trying to take away your 2nd amendment right. Wake up please!
     
  14. xcrunner51

    xcrunner51 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    5,461
    Likes Received:
    2,300
    How about we'll keep the guns on our side of the border if they keep the drugs on their side. Oh that's right, its not that simple.
     
  15. Wild Bill

    Wild Bill Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 1999
    Messages:
    164
    Likes Received:
    2
    I believe it was Jefferson who said that anyone who would sacrifice liberty for security deserves neither.

    This country's entire existence is predicated on individual freedom.

    The second amendment is not solely for hunters. It is the tool that enforces the remaining amendments.

    I understand this puts me directly into Crazytown, but it's historically correct.
     
  16. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,279
    Likes Received:
    23

    Do you know the definition of a loophole?

    If so please explain the "gunshow loophole".
     
  17. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    34,104
    Likes Received:
    13,482
    I'm not sure what release you're talking about (link would be nice). But, I don't know if it could compare in gravity to the gang war we have going on on the Texas border being fueled by America's easy access to guns and large appetite for narcotics that has killed thousands of people this year alone. Do you think some conspirators have killed 4000 people, including prominent Mexicans in politics, law enforcement, and journalism in a complicated bid to undermine the Second Amendment? Please, this is a serious problem that Mexico and Texas faces. Second Amendment rights need to be protected for our citizenry, but we need to do something to help the Mexicans return the rule of law to their country.
     
  18. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    18,257
    Likes Received:
    13,490
    The law is configured so that a non-licensed gun ownerr can sell a gun to a friend and not have to fill out forms and do background checks. The small-time personal nature of this sale means that it is intrinsically a safer sale.

    At gun shows, people sell guns to people they don't know, but because it is person-to-person between people who aren't licensed to sell guns it doesn't require background checks. This is a loophole. You use a gap in the law for person to person sales to build a giant marketplace that is no different that the impersonal transactions between dealer and individual that are regulated.

    This is what is known as a loophole. Gun shows enable individuals to circumvent laws requiring impersonal sales to be subject to a background check.
     
  19. SamFisher

    SamFisher Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    58,866
    Likes Received:
    36,409
    Hey buddy, let me google that for you!
     
  20. fmullegun

    fmullegun Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    Messages:
    3,279
    Likes Received:
    23
    I guess from previous postings you are a FFL dealer. My understanding is if the BATFE finds you are selling guns for profit they will ask to see your FFL, correct?

    My understanding of loophole is you are circumventing a law. Since there is no law anywhere regulating the sale of firearms face-to-face between non-dealers how is anylaw being avoided?

    What makes you think the law is "supposed" to be for friends only?
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now