Cavs might be the new worst Front Office in the league

[roslolian]

Originally Posted by HI Mana While the Cavs have not made the picks I would have, if they truly wanted Dion Waiters, they pretty much had to select him at 4. Assuming Sacramento and Portland were locked in at Robinson and Lillard respectively, you had both Golden State and Toronto who had Waiters high on their boards (possibly even above Barnes). So for better or worse, Waiters' agent managed to impress at least 4 different GMs in Cleveland, Golden State, Toronto and Phoenix, as well as the Logo himself, Jerry West.

Well this is the problem isn't it? It's the agent who impressed them with the whole "now you see him, now you don't" schtick. How do you even know other teams wanted Waiters over everyone else, according to DM once Charlotte picked MKG nobody in the top 10 wanted to trade down because they will be getting the guy they want. If they really wanted Waiters, wouldn't one of the other teams say "eff it" and trade down, like how Dallas traded their pick to Cleveland after the Rox got White?

Plus, there's the fact that incompetent FO reached on Thompson last year and picked him up 10 spots too early? Or maybe TT's agent impressed Jerry West again and the Cavs had no choice but to pick at 4, LOL!

Anyway, I don't think I'm criticizing just their picks, every GM screws up in the NBA, just look at how the OKC GM whiffed on all of his lottery picks after WB and Harden. The thing is, with good GMs there is always a method to the madness, even if the result was bad, if the strategy that got that result was sound then you can chalk that up to luck/breaks of the game. In this case though, the Cavs FO chose TT because they thought he would be an instant-impact player and thus would give them more job security (over say JV who was undoubtedly the better player but has to wait for a year to come over), and then they got sweet-talked by the agent and ESPN-style highlight reels of Waiters crossing over random dudes and dunking the ball.

To be quite honest, I feel really bad about Gilbert. The dude invested a lot in the franchise (he sponsors their own arena), and he essentially paid 14M to buy a lottery pick from LA. Too bad he keeps getting these deadbeat GMs which screw everything up. Oh well, wait till next year's 4rth pick!

[JayZ750]

While I agree that they are not the picks I would have gone with, I'm not going to say a smart GM would have taken Jonas quite yet. Jonas hasn't even played yet, either. He could just be okay, too. And Waiters could turn out great.

Again, like you all, I personally would prefer Kyrie, Jonas, TRob/Barnes combo, but I don't think you can make any definitive judgments at this time.

[CertifiedTroll]

I was taken aback when they picked Dion over Barnes

[Haymitch]

If I were a Cavs fan I would be pretty pissed right now, knowing that we could have had Jonas Valančiūnas and Thomas Robinson to team with Irving instead of Tristan Thompson and Dion Waiters.

I think Robinson and Valančiūnas could complement each other very well offensively. Defensively, they'd need some work. But still, if you have two guys who can (potentially) score while posting up, you're on you're way to making an impact in the league.

Thompson was a great hustle player at UT, and he can be useful in the right situation. But he was a reach. So was Waiters.

[da_juice]

Valanciuas- Robinson-Irving would have been really good.

[SamFisher]

Originally Posted by C1UTCH-C1TY who do you think they should've drafted instead of tristan thompson in 2011 and waiters in 2012?

Obviously the would-have-been #4 (Tristan Thompson) trade for Rudy "Durant level" Gay not going through is what killed them.

[HI Mana]

Originally Posted by roslolian Well this is the problem isn't it? It's the agent who impressed them with the whole "now you see him, now you don't" schtick. How do you even know other teams wanted Waiters over everyone else, according to DM once Charlotte picked MKG nobody in the top 10 wanted to trade down because they will be getting the guy they want. If they really wanted Waiters, wouldn't one of the other teams say "eff it" and trade down, like how Dallas traded their pick to Cleveland after the Rox got White? Plus, there's the fact that incompetent FO reached on Thompson last year and picked him up 10 spots too early? Or maybe TT's agent impressed Jerry West again and the Cavs had no choice but to pick at 4, LOL! Anyway, I don't think I'm criticizing just their picks, every GM screws up in the NBA, just look at how the OKC GM whiffed on all of his lottery picks after WB and Harden. The thing is, with good GMs there is always a method to the madness, even if the result was bad, if the strategy that got that result was sound then you can chalk that up to luck/breaks of the game. In this case though, the Cavs FO chose TT because they thought he would be an instant-impact player and thus would give them more job security (over say JV who was undoubtedly the better player but has to wait for a year to come over), and then they got sweet-talked by the agent and ESPN-style highlight reels of Waiters crossing over random dudes and dunking the ball. To be quite honest, I feel really bad about Gilbert. The dude invested a lot in the franchise (he sponsors their own arena), and he essentially paid 14M to buy a lottery pick from LA. Too bad he keeps getting these deadbeat GMs which screw everything up. Oh well, wait till next year's 4rth pick!

Brian Windhorst did an excellent piece on ESPN about the Cavaliers' draft strategy, that clearly stated the Cavaliers had Waiters over Barnes, that they'd been scouting him extensively and had a personal connection with the Syracuse coaching staff. I think that it's very clear that Waiters was the #4 prospect on Cleveland's big board, and they had some reliable intel that there was nowhere they could trade down to where they could still get their man.

My working assumption is that Sacramento was only interested in Thomas Robinson, and that if he was off the board it would trigger a trade with Houston, who would pick up Andre Drummond, assuming that Beal/MKG go 3/4. Lillard goes 6, Waiters goes 7 and Barnes goes 8. Detroit trades down to get John Henson, potentially shipping their pick to someone who wants Austin Rivers, which causes the Hornets to move their pick for someone who wants Jeremy Lamb, etc.

Agents play these games all the time, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's just a fact, and it happens to even some of the best GMs. Nic Batum refused to work out for anyone but the Spurs, but the Trailblazers got a heck of a player. Robert Swift's agent managed to hoodwink Danny Ainge, and were the Sonics not even more enamored with his lack of workouts, Garnett isn't a Celtic. Arn Tellum steered Kobe Bryant from the Nets in even more forceful language. He's been pretty decent. It's just another layer of crap that GMs have to wade through.

Again, while I personally don't agree with the scouting department of the Cavs, there was definitely a method in their drafting process for getting the guys they want, even if those guys might not turn out to be the right ones.

[Ricksmith]

The Cavs could have had a core of Kyrie Irving-Harrison Barnes-Jonas Valanciunas. You take the promising, defensive Center over the undersized Power Forward every day of the week.

I'm not even a Cavaliers fan and even I'm upset about their previous 2 drafts.

[SkyrimOwnsAll]

Originally Posted by Ricksmith The Cavs could have had a core of Kyrie Irving-Harrison Barnes-Jonas Valanciunas. You take the promising, defensive Center over the undersized Power Forward every day of the week. I'm not even a Cavaliers fan and even I'm upset about their previous 2 drafts.

exactly, i dont feel bad for the Cavs FO. I feel bad for the Clevand fans, and Kyrie Irving. You have 2 insanely high draft choices, and you take a RAW undersized PF, and a non-athletic undersized 2 guard( who reminds me more of DeShawn Stevenson.. than D-Wade)

This is why LeBron left that team. I hope Kyrie doesnt do it, for the sake of the Cavs fans

[Air Langhi]

Well there is a reason why lebron left.

[UTAllTheWay]

There's not a single thing wrong with that Tristan Thompson pick... especially in that incredibly mediocre draft.

Dion Waiters is a question mark right now, I would have taken Barnes there, but it's way too early to tell.

[roslolian]

Originally Posted by UTAllTheWay There's not a single thing wrong with that Tristan Thompson pick... especially in that incredibly mediocre draft. Dion Waiters is a question mark right now, I would have taken Barnes there, but it's way too early to tell.

How about the fact that he's an undersized PF, while they had a stud C on the board, you really think there's nothing wrong with that? Well whatever dude, feel free to ignore both TT and Waiter's abysmal performances here on out. I'm not really a Cavs fan so I don't give **** LOL!

[roslolian]

Originally Posted by HI Mana Brian Windhorst did an excellent piece on ESPN about the Cavaliers' draft strategy, that clearly stated the Cavaliers had Waiters over Barnes, that they'd been scouting him extensively and had a personal connection with the Syracuse coaching staff. I think that it's very clear that Waiters was the #4 prospect on Cleveland's big board, and they had some reliable intel that there was nowhere they could trade down to where they could still get their man.

Look, there's no doubt Waiters was number 4 on their big board, the problem is why is he their 4rth best dude, and why did they take him fourth when nobody else had him at that spot?

1. The SG crop of this draft is a crapshoot, everybody had severe holes in their game and no one really knew who would be the better dude among Beal, Waiters, Lamb and Rivers. OTH, the SF ranking is pretty clear cut, you had Barnes and MKG neck-and-neck, and then everyone else. You had a top 4 pick, would you take the best or 2nd best SF? Or take the dude who could turn out to be a bust and make you the laughing stock of the L?

2. Much of the "scouting" people had on Waiters were just highlight reels in college, his agent kept him from participating in ALL types of stuff, from private workouts to camp workouts, I don't even know if he attended the draft combine. IIRC, Waiters didn't workout for the Cavs as well, if he had they would have noticed his broken J immediately. I don't care if you looked at all his college games, why will you pick a guy you haven't even seen in person once?

3. If they had "personal" connections with the college staff why not leverage on that relationships= like what the NE Patriots do and take him lower? Like I said, nobody had seen the kid play, and yet somehow these other teams who don't have any connections like they do would take him in a heartbeat? LOL! Windhorst was being polite, if he trashed the Cavs FO then he won't get that kind of access in the future. What I got from that article is the Cavs knew early on Charlotte would get MKG, predicted Waiters would be available and then sat on their asses the entire draft. It's called a WAR ROOM for a reason, yet Windhorst described the atmosphere as "relaxing". Compare that with the Bobcats FO, those guys were picking 2nd, yet had several offers on the table. Now that's what an FO should be, always looking for new deals to be had and poring though different scenarios, instead of sitting on their asses drinking iced tea and watching the draft unfold.

4. The Cavs FO aren't the brightest kids on the block. They proposed trading the 4rth pick, 22nd pick and 2 second rounders for Davis and were shocked when NO refused. OMG, NO just turned down 4 picks for Davis?! LOL wtf get these clowns out of here.

[Ricksmith]

Is it true Dion Waiters never started a game in college?

Edit- Lol, it's true! 71 college games, 0 starts.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/.../gamelog/2011/

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/.../gamelog/2012/

[UTAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by roslolian How about the fact that he's an undersized PF, while they had a stud C on the board, you really think there's nothing wrong with that? Well whatever dude, feel free to ignore both TT and Waiter's abysmal performances here on out. I'm not really a Cavs fan so I don't give **** LOL!

No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. But I also think people overrate Valanciunas.

Andre Drummond is a better C prospect IMO.

[AFS]

Originally Posted by Ricksmith Is it true Dion Waiters never started a game in college? Edit- Lol, it's true! 71 college games, 0 starts. http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/.../gamelog/2011/ http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/.../gamelog/2012/

He was playing starters minutes in 2012 though. That's the part that counts.

[rolyat93]

Originally Posted by rolyat93 Terrence Jones will be getting hyped up like Pat Pat's first year.

Called it.

[nguyen3706]

Originally Posted by roslolian since this dude played in a weak ass conference in college.

Uhhh what?! I agree with Waiters being super overrated and horrible pick, but he played in the Big East. Before all the conference realignment occurs, this is arguably the most competitive college bball conference in the nation along with the ACC.

[MambaJoe]

Originally Posted by C1UTCH-C1TY who do you think they should've drafted instead of tristan thompson in 2011 and waiters in 2012?

Last year instead of Thompson, Jonas Valanciunas would be a great pickup instead. They would have a PG and a Center for the future but instead, they went ahead and drafted an undersized PF who would probably end up like another Tyrus Thomas. Drafting an undersized PF that high up in the draft would most likely come out a bust considering a Center with more upside and more talent was still on the board.

This season, they drafted Waiters who I think isn't that bad but because they drafted him that high up would probably be another bad pick on their part. To me, I believe that if you're that high up in the draft especially top 4, you would pick the best talent available and trust me, Waiters is not the best talent left available. It would of make much more sense if they would of draft Harrison Barnes who has the sizes, skills and potential to be a really good SF in the NBA.

Barnes's stock did drop a little from last season but he is still a top 5 talent. He has the potential to be a really good player in this league. If the Cavs really did wanted Waiters, they could of traded down anyway and still be able to draft him and have a chance to add on more pieces. I also think Austin Rivers is better than Waiters. Dion Waiters may be a good slasher but I think Austin Rivers is a better overall scorer than Waiters and I really think Waiters have a problem with his weight issue. Its worst because he's a guard and a young rookie which makes it even more of a red flag.

I much rather draft Damian Lillard over Waiters and have him play the SG position. But overall, aside from Kyrie, the Cavs didn't do a good job in drafting their young talent. If Kyrie wasn't as much of a sure thing to go first in the lottery, they probably wouldn't even drafted him in the first place. But that's why they are the Cavs. They just got lucky to have two number 1 overall pick within 9 years and in both of those years, a Lebron and Kyrie came out.

[MambaJoe]

Originally Posted by da_juice Valanciuas- Robinson-Irving would have been really good.

That is nice but instead they got a good PG in Kyrie and an undersized PF in Tristan and Waiters