Standing Reach/No Step Vertical Reach/Max Vertical

[jopatmc]

(Not a very cleverly disguised discussion on big men in the 2013/14 drafts)

Much ado has been made recently about guys at the last combine fudging their verticals by shortening their standing reaches.

Be that what it may, the physical defensive presence of a big man paint and rim protector comes down to two attributes, base strength and standing reach. For the purpose of this post, I am focusing on standing reach and some on no step vertical for now.

Perusing DraftExpress' measurements database, you can see the top guys for standing reach come out at around 9'6". Young centers in today's game, Javale and Deandre check in just over and under that figure. The greatest reach measurement they have in their database is Pavel Podkolzine at 9'8". Remember him? A huge stiff, simple a giant that had a pituitary gland problem and no basketball skills. He's making a living in Russia, undoubtedly standing around the paint with his arms up.

When you look at NBA guys, guys that can play ball and are more than just a scarecrow standing around out there, guys like Shaq, the two young guys I mentioned, Derrick Favors, Cousins, and even Dwight are at the top of the list. Dwight shows a 9'3" standing reach. These measurements were done years ago, so I would think Dwight is probably around 9'5" to 9'6" today.

All that being said, they just posted some measurements numbers for some of the high schoolers.

Nerlens Noel 9' 1 1/5" standing reach. Could that have been fudged? Possibly. But look at his arms. The truth is he is not long-armed. Not necessarily alligator tines out there, but he's not long-armed. Now look at pictures of Rudy Gobert, standing flat footed with about a 1 inch sandle on his feet, grabbing the backboard with both hands and holding it. He's got every bit of a 9'6" standing reach, maybe a little more.

Next, no step vertical. Why? Because defensively these guys are mostly one-stepping or no-stepping when they defend the post. They're not getting a run at a blocked shot, unless they are coming weakside and in that case, most all the top guys are going to come out at 12-12.5 feet. The only question about max verticals is can they use them in a game defensively. The answer is....rarely. So, IMO no-step vertical reach is more important than max vertical. In that category, Oden, Howard, etc., come out around 12'.

So, my question is, after watching Gobert, do you think he's got 18" on a no-step vertical to get up to 12' max vertical reach????

My point is...that guy is super long and has super vertical reach...to go along with athleticism. He's 2-3 inches longer and a 2-3 inch reach advantage over the longest of the longs. Does that make him a star in the making? NOPE! Not saying that....yet. What I am saying is when you look at him and Nerlens Noel.....you'd better notice the length difference between them and take it into consideration in your evals of each guy. Noels may have a 3 inch top but Gobert has a 3 inch (or more) advantage. Doesn't matter where their heads are. It matters how high and wide their hands can go.

You'd better watch Rudy Gobert. If he adds some muscle and retains all his athletic ability, and if he rounds out all that with more offensive skills...he could be very special. Those are two big IFs though.

[Rockets_4_life]

Standing reach measurement's have been a little suspect as of late.

Specially with this recent draft. I mean how in the heck does Anthony Davis have a 9'0 standing reach, while being 6'10 with a massive 7'5 1/2 wingspan.

Hell, for comparison sake, Patrick Patterson is 6'9 and has a 7'1 wingspan and he measured just an inch below Davis standing reach, with an 8'11 standing reach.

[jopatmc]

Originally Posted by Rockets_4_life Standing reach measurement's have been a little suspect as of late. Specially with this recent draft. I mean how in the heck does Anthony Davis have a 9'0 standing reach, while being 6'10 with a massive 7'5 1/2 wingspan. Hell, for comparison sake, Patrick Patterson is 6'9 and has a 7'1 wingspan and he measured just an inch below Davis standing reach, with an 8'11 standing reach.

Dunno. Probably because Davis has a whole lot more neck than Patterson does.

But just for comparison to Davis. Gobert stands a little over 7' in his socks and has a 7'9" wingspan.

[jayhow92]

Nice to see Gobert getting some love from CFans. Dude has major defensive potential.

[haoafu]

That database doesn't have yao. Rookie yao had a nice vertical, which is lost in his later years. Rookie yao is 7"6' with wingspan of 7"3'(doesn't it sound more impressive if he's 7"3' with 7"6' wingspan?), and he blocked shaq's first 5 shots with ease. Yao had very strong base and he's even more explosive as a teenager(he lost quite a lot of vertical after a surgery as a teenager)...

I like Gobert, but he's too thin in the video I saw and I doubt he has fairly weak base to begin with. Historically some of the young prospects still grow before they hit the lottery, so we'll see.

[superfob]

Originally Posted by jopatmc In that category, Oden, Howard, etc., come out around 12'. So, my question is, after watching Gobert, do you think he's got 18" on a no-step vertical to get up to 12' max vertical reach???? My point is...that guy is super long and has super vertical reach...to go along with athleticism. He's 2-3 inches longer and a 2-3 inch reach advantage over the longest of the longs. Does that make him a star in the making? NOPE! Not saying that....yet. What I am saying is when you look at him and Nerlens Noel.....you'd better notice the length difference between them and take it into consideration in your evals of each guy. Noels may have a 3 inch top but Gobert has a 3 inch (or more) advantage. Doesn't matter where their heads are. It matters how high and wide their hands can go.

Nothing to add, but my "pause" meter was going off the charts.

[jopatmc]

Originally Posted by haoafu That database doesn't have yao. Rookie yao had a nice vertical, which is lost in his later years. Rookie yao is 7"6' with wingspan of 7"3'(doesn't it sound more impressive if he's 7"3' with 7"6' wingspan?), and he blocked shaq's first 5 shots with ease. Yao had very strong base and he's even more explosive as a teenager(he lost quite a lot of vertical after a surgery as a teenager)... I like Gobert, but he's too thin in the video I saw and I doubt he has fairly weak base to begin with. Historically some of the young prospects still grow before they hit the lottery, so we'll see.

Gobert's definitely too thin. But so is Nerlens. They both gotta add weight. So that's not the difference maker between them in the draft.

[jbasket]

Is there any chance he is quick enough laterally to guard 4's? I haven't heard much about him.

[jopatmc]

Originally Posted by jbasket Is there any chance he is quick enough laterally to guard 4's? I haven't heard much about him.

You know.....in my mind....if you're gonna draft a guy that is 7' with a 7'9" wingspan and a 9'6" standing reach that is a defensive shot blocker and rim protector, then why would you even want him running around guarding 4's? Unless he's got a face-up game like Dirk Nowitzki. Which he most likely does not.

[jbasket]

Originally Posted by jopatmc You know.....in my mind....if you're gonna draft a guy that is 7' with a 7'9" wingspan and a 9'6" standing reach that is a defensive shot blocker and rim protector, then why would you even want him running around guarding 4's? Unless he's got a face-up game like Dirk Nowitzki. Which he most likely does not.

True, but many leading shotblockers are at the 4 position like Ibaka or Anthony Davis or Biyombo (in the future). Except for a few exceptions, many 4's still stay inside the paint, and he can still contest shots efficiently. And if you are greedy, you can pair him with another shot blocker and that would be deadly. But it all matters if he is mobile enough. In addition, he would have a very large size and length mismatch.

I ask about his mobility because sometimes, people do not fill out as expected and he might be too small to play the C. Javale Mcgee might have had more reach than Bynum, but he couldn't match up well physically in the post during the series.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by Rockets_4_life Standing reach measurement's have been a little suspect as of late. Specially with this recent draft. I mean how in the heck does Anthony Davis have a 9'0 standing reach, while being 6'10 with a massive 7'5 1/2 wingspan. Hell, for comparison sake, Patrick Patterson is 6'9 and has a 7'1 wingspan and he measured just an inch below Davis standing reach, with an 8'11 standing reach.

Could be a difference in mobility. PP has stronger upper body/shoulders, so his arms could be more mobile going up overhead since those muscles are firing better/more. Lack of mobility wouldnt affect wingspan as much.

Also, keep in mind the whole body is usually affected, so a bit extra ankle, knee, hip, spine, and shoulder extension could add up to extra inches. The difference wouldn't come out in height measurements because the body is relaxed and not reaching.

[Panda23]

very intriguing player. got some insane length and seems fluid as opposed to some bigs (thabeet)

[jopatmc]

Originally Posted by Panda23 very intriguing player. got some insane length and seems fluid as opposed to some bigs (thabeet)

He is fluid and athletic. And he appears to have at least decent bball iq. Questions I have are work ethic and his ability to add weight. Some guys have small, thin bones. They just can't add weight without it affecting their ability to move. They simply can't carry the weight on their frame. I'm worried about him in that regard. However, he is still only 20. He is much more ready to play in the NBA and contribute than Nerlens Noel is.

[heypartner]

btw: inquiring minds want to know. What is J.J. Watts standing reach?

[rocketblaze]

Isaiah Austin is another guy who has an interesting physical profile, to go along with an interesting skill set.

Earlier in the year he measured at 7'0 with/out shoes, with a 7'3 wingspan and 9'3 standing reach. and he's still only 18yrs old.

[LCAhmed]

I wonder what Dirk's standing reach is. With a jump shot like his, having a high standing reach contributes to success like his. So Silky smooth. KD has a standing reach of 9'2" and his jump shot is LIGHTS OUT!

[jbasket]

Originally Posted by heypartner btw: inquiring minds want to know. What is J.J. Watts standing reach?

the height of Kevin Durant, the wingspan of a bald eagle, and the length of 7.5 footballs.

[RV6]

Originally Posted by heypartner btw: inquiring minds want to know. What is J.J. Watts standing reach?

Who do you work for? Denver? We don't know you bro.