Cosell Talks: The Top 5 Wide Receivers (AJ #1)

[713]

dez bryant has top 5 talent but a jacoby jones brain.

[moestavern19]

Originally Posted by CaseyH He can't throw a deep ball. His rating comes from TE and RB dumps. Calvin has the obviously superior QB. When comparing Schaub and Stafford, all of Staffords advantages are such that highly favor elite WRs.

I don't think that really means much in the grand scheme of things. Joe Flacco throws a pretty deep ball but his mid range accuracy is spotty.

Schaub may not throw darts like Stafford, but it is the WR's job to get open. Calvin Johnson doesn't do all his damage on deep balls either.

[ubigred]

Originally Posted by moestavern19 I don't think that really means much in the grand scheme of things. Joe Flacco throws a pretty deep ball but his mid range accuracy is spotty. Schaub may not throw darts like Stafford, but it is the WR's job to get open. Calvin Johnson doesn't do all his damage on deep balls either.

His noodle arm sucks.

Flacco doesn't have a stud #1

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by ubigred Flacco doesn't have a stud #1

plus no one is comparing Flacco to either Stafford or Schaub.

AJ gets open all the time, although I think he has an advantage over Calvin there because of Kubiak. When the ball finally arrives he has stopped for a cuppa tea and been surrounded by DBs. He fights for the ball as well as anyone.

[Hey Now!]

Originally Posted by CaseyH He can't throw a deep ball. His rating comes from TE and RB dumps.

Since 2008, Schaub has finished 2nd, 5th, 6th and 3rd in YPA. His average as a Texan - *average* - is 7.98. That's higher than Peyton Manning's career YPA. Higher than Tom Brady's. And most assuredly higher than Matthew Freaking Stafford's. You don't do that "dumping" it to RBs and TEs.

In fact, Stafford had his best year as a QB last year and only posted a 7.60 YPA. And that's with Calvin Johnson averaging 17.5 yards a catch. 17.5. Take away CJ and Stafford's YPA plummets by more than a yard: 6.55. David Carr's career YPA is 6.38.

And before you say it - playing 6 full games without AJ last year, Schaub posted an 8.48 YPA - a career best.

So you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Originally Posted by CaseyH Calvin has the obviously superior QB.

He's younger; that's Stafford only tangible advantage. It's a big one - I'd absolutely trade Schaub for Stafford - but it's based on nothing but age. He is not a better QB right now.

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Hey Now! You don't do that "dumping" it to RBs and TEs. So you literally have no idea what you're talking about.

Interesting coming from the guy who was SHOCKED if they take an OLB in the first 4 rounds. LOL

Do you actually watch the games? Schaubs 80 and 78 yard passes to JJ and Arian were 10 yards dumps that the players took yard.

As far as actually THROWING long passes Schaub has a noodle arm. Your stats are worthless. Arian has a YAC stat of 12.1

His longest pass is 80 yards to Arian, he threw it 5 yards, Arian took it 75.

[Hey Now!]

Originally Posted by CaseyH Interesting coming from the guy who was SHOCKED if they take an OLB in the first 4 rounds. LOL

What a remarkably strange and flaccid misdirect. If I said it... (and I have no working recollection of it - care to post a link?) - who cares? Mindlessly predicting draft results has absolutely zero relevance to discussing quantifiable and tangible QB statistics.

Originally Posted by CaseyH Do you actually watch the games?

No. I don't. I have someone send me hourly updates via smoke signal.

Originally Posted by CaseyH As far as actually THROWING long passes Schaub has a noodle arm. Your stats are worthless. Arian has a YAC stat of 12.1

I like that YPA is somehow *my* stat - as if I'm making it up. It's a legitimate stat. Honest. And it's highly predictive of team success.

Originally Posted by CaseyH His longest pass is 80 yards to Arian, he threw it 5 yards, Arian took it 75.

Foster's catch-run was 78; his longest - in the same game (aren't you WACHING games?????) - was 80 to Jacoby and it was most assuredly not a 10-yard dump.

He doesn't have a strong arm - but this isn't about throwing a ball 75 yards - it's refuting your inaccurate (and ignorant) "dump" statement. QBs who throw for nearly 8 yards a pass attempt are not dumping it off.

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Hey Now! What a remarkably strange and flaccid misdirect. If I said it... (and I have no working recollection of it - care to post a link?)

Here you go:

Originally Posted by CaseyH We have a need at LB anyways, I expect a high draft pick to be OLB.

Originally Posted by Hey Now! I'd be shocked if they used one of their first 4 picks on an OLB

Ouch

Originally Posted by Hey Now! I like that YPA is somehow *my* stat - as if I'm making it up. It's a legitimate stat. Honest. And it's highly predictive of team success.

And it says nothing of the QB's ability to throw a deep ball. Throw to guys with massive YAC's and you look great.

Originally Posted by Hey Now! Foster's catch-run was 78; his longest - in the same game (aren't you WACHING games?????) - was 80 to Jacoby and it was most assuredly not a 10-yard dump.

He threw a freaking wounded duck that was pathetic. Jacoby had to wait on it.

Arians long runs (and Schaubs long completions) are from dump off plays. He isn't throwing deep at all.

Originally Posted by Hey Now! He doesn't have a strong arm - but this isn't about throwing a ball 75 yards - it's refuting your inaccurate (and ignorant) "dump" statement. QBs who throw for nearly 8 yards a pass attempt are not dumping it off.

Schaub is. My statement is accurate. His rating comes from TE and RB dumps and watching them run. Like I said before, the things Stafford is better at than Schaub helps his WRs. Your YPA stat to prove he can throw deep is asinine. In 2011 Cam Newton had almost a yard less per completion, no one in their right mind would say he is inferior at throwing down the field.

A better stat is who is he throwing too. In 2011 the person targeted the most was.........Owen Daniels with 93 (he is a TE) second was Arian Foster with 80 (he is a RB). He isn't that great for wide outs.

[HR Dept]

Originally Posted by CaseyH Arians long runs (and Schaubs long completions) are from dump off plays. He isn't throwing deep at all. Schaub is. My statement is accurate. His rating comes from TE and RB dumps and watching them run. Like I said before, the things Stafford is better at than Schaub helps his WRs. Your YPA stat to prove he can throw deep is asinine. In 2011 Cam Newton had almost a yard less per completion, no one in their right mind would say he is inferior at throwing down the field.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2012...ards-2011.html

This should end that arguement and prove you somewhat right and wrong. Schaub is tenth in 'Air Yards Per Attempt.' Ahead of Stafford and Kolb. However Stafford's and Kolb's % of air yards are slightly higher.

I think the three are more comparable, in this regard, than different.

[HR Dept]

It also makes that whole argument moot, as there is a very small amount of disparity from top to bottom.

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by HR Dept It also makes that whole argument moot, as there is a very small amount of disparity from top to bottom.

I think Kubiak's offense is a factor here. Schaub throws on boots quite often and throwing it long is almost mandatory unless he has to dump to Arian which he often does.

I mean we can all tell by watching that Schaub lacks arm strength compared to Stafford, Newton, Brady etc. It isn't hard to SEE that when you QB is incapable of overthrowing your WR's the results might favor other guys.

I'm not even hating on Schaub, he has strengths and weaknesses. The long ball is just a weakness. For this next year if I knew all three were healthy I would take him over Stafford.

[Hey Now!]

Originally Posted by CaseyH Ouch

I recall specifically requesting a link... Geez, I can't imagine why you'd fail to provide one despite apparently having access to the post - oh, wait! I know! Because you wanted to completely rip it out of context and hoped no one would call you on it. Surprise! I'm calling you on it.

Here's my entire quote in its entirety - note the giant "save" you conveniently left off because it's kinda, sorta important:

Originally Posted by Hey Now! Given their other, more pressing needs, I'd be shocked if they used one of their first 4 picks on an OLB, save for a really good one they love sliding to them. Though, it's not a terrible idea - even if Reed and Barwin prove to be studs, they need depth.

I don't know, man - seems to me that's exactly what happened, isn’t it, CaseyH?

Originally Posted by Rick Smith First of all, I hadn’t had a chance to say how pleased we were that Whitney (Mercilus) was there in the first round. We had talked about maybe possibly even moving up in the first round as he continued to fall.

Ouch indeed.

More importantly, now that we've established that you're not above fabricating details... what does a(n accurate, as it turns out) draft prediction have to do with verifiable, tangible QB statistics?

Originally Posted by CaseyH And it says nothing of the QB's ability to throw a deep ball. Throw to guys with massive YAC's and you look great.

You mean... like Matt Stafford?

Originally Posted by CaseyH He threw a freaking wounded duck that was pathetic. Jacoby had to wait on it.

So, IOW... it wasn't one of his patented, rating-stuffing "TE and RB dumps"? It's OK to admit you're wrong. In fact, you were wrong twice: His 80-yard TD was not to Arian Foster and it was not a "TE and RB dump." No need to start devolving the discussion into a series of "yeah but"s as you furiously move the target. You were wrong. No big deal. Admit it and move on.

Originally Posted by CaseyH Arians long runs (and Schaubs long completions) are from dump off plays. He isn't throwing deep at all.

Schaub doesn't have a strong arm - but he routinely ranks among the league leaders in YPA, which means he is not, by any stretch, inflating his rating with "TE and RB dumps." To continue arguing he does is, quite frankly, ignorant.

(Where is DonnyMost, btw? Or The Cat – get in here!)

Originally Posted by CaseyH Your YPA stat to prove he can throw deep is asinine. In 2011 Cam Newton had almost a yard less per completion, no one in their right mind would say he is inferior at throwing down the field.

Again, it's not *my* stat - it's a widely used metric by a lot of football people, some of whom believe it is the purest means for evaluating winning QBs that we have.

Again, again: We're not debating how strong his arm is (it's not very strong at all and I've never said otherwise... though feel free to fabricate a post in which you pretend as if I did say it as we now know that's part of your arsenal). I’m refuting your asinine idea that Schaub is a product of "TE and RB dumps." He may have leaned it on it heavily last year because his best WR was hurt and his second and third WRs were also hurt (Walter) and/or proved to be supremely mediocre (JJ). But historically, he throws to his WRs and does so at a league-leading rate.

Originally Posted by CaseyH A better stat is who is he throwing too. In 2011 the person targeted the most was.........Owen Daniels with 93 (he is a TE) second was Arian Foster with 80 (he is a RB). He isn't that great for wide outs.

Again: Johnson missed significant time; Walter was hurt and/or regressed; JJ regressed. Schaub's hand was forced. His RB and TEs were routinely his best (and only) options most weeks. In a typical (read: healthy) year, he targets AJ nearly twice as many times as any other player on the team and Walter is routinely 2nd or 3rd. And his YPA is among the league leaders.

He throws downfield. Downfield does not equal 50 yards. Offenses are routinely built around mostly 7-10-yard pass plays.

[rocketfan83]

Wes Welker not in the top 5? nonsense

What else must he do?

[Grandpappy]

Schaub does not have a strong arm, but he does throw deep. His inbility to lead the receiver(read AJ) properly results in a lot plays where AJ is tackled after he makes the catch. That is what hurts Johnson's TD numbers. To the OP who says he only dumps off to Arian and the TEs that is simply not true. Just because he does not have a strong arm does not mean he only dumps off. Look at what AJ has done since he had Schaub throwing to him versus the David Carr years. during the Carr era he had more than 1000 yds receiving only 2 times in 5 years. The most yards he ever got was 1147. During the Schaub era he has topped 1000yds three times in 4 seasons, hit more than 1500 yards twice. During the Carr era he was averaging around 5.25 YAC. During the Schaub era he is averaging around 4.2YAC. You dont post those kind of improvements unless you have a QB that is actually throwing the ball to you.

[juicystream]

Originally Posted by CaseyH He can't throw a deep ball. His rating comes from TE and RB dumps. Calvin has the obviously superior QB. When comparing Schaub and Stafford, all of Staffords advantages are such that highly favor elite WRs.

You mean where Stafford throws it amongst 3 defenders and Calvin Johnson comes down with it?

Calvin Johnson
Larry Fitzgerald
Andre Johnson

[juicystream]

Originally Posted by rocketfan83 Wes Welker not in the top 5? nonsense What else must he do?

Do it without Tom Brady, and the Patriots offense. He's the perfect player for their offense.

BTW, he belongs in the Top 5.

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by juicystream You mean where Stafford throws it amongst 3 defenders and Calvin Johnson comes down with it? Calvin Johnson Larry Fitzgerald Andre Johnson

Stafford threw for 3357 yards to people not named Calvin Johnson. I'll be happy if Schaub gets that in total next year.

[Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Hey Now! I recall specifically requesting a link... Geez, I can't imagine why you'd fail to provide one despite apparently having access to the post - oh, wait! I know! Because you wanted to completely rip it out of context and hoped no one would call you on it. Surprise! I'm calling you on it.

See those little red things in the quote box? Those are links to the quotes genius.

Wow.

Thanks for the "call out" though, more ammo to call you on your ignorance later.

As for the rest of your post, format it in a way that doesn't make me wanna shoot my monitor and I might read it.

[Hey Now!]

Originally Posted by CaseyH As for the rest of your post, format it in a way that doesn't make me wanna shoot my monitor and I might read it.

What if I just got a response started for ya?...

Originally Posted by Not CaseyH, But Should Be If He was Any Kind of a Man Dude... you were right, I was wrong. A lot. For starters, I misrepresented what was actually an accurate draft analysis from you by ripping it out of context. It was stupid to bring it up, anyway - only a fool would hold someone accountable for a pre-draft prediction. And hey, wasn't the draft three months ago? Yeah, I regret bookmarking the page and checking it daily, salivating at the chance to finally drop it on you. And then to find out you were kinda dead-on... Again, really sorry. And Schaub's longest TD pass last year wasn't a dump to a TE or a RB; it was an (admittedly ugly) pass that nonetheless traveled some 30 yards. And it was to Jacoby Jones, not Arian Foster. My bad and my bad - can we still be friends? Additionally, while I'm still willing to debate Schaub's effectiveness throwing a deep ball, I now (thanks to you) have a greater understanding that we're not talking about it in terms of a video game, so judging a QB by his ability to throw 75-yard bombs is, since they do it so infrequently and because his statistics are otherwise routinely among the league leaders, pretty remarkably irrelevant. PS I think you're a pretty awesome poster, otherwise (especially your draft analysis as it turns out!) and there are days I dream that I'm you. Peace. With warm love, CaseyH

I forgive you. [/Walter White]

[Joshfast]

oh god come on training camp I can't take any more or the Astros..