Am I missing something here, Shaq, Dream, Moses > Tim Duncan

I'm making a Hakeem Olajuwon mix as we speak...
So much disrespect.

 

It's only that Grizzlies fan that's disrespecting Hakeem.

He probably thinks Z-Bo and Gasol > Hakeem.

 

That assessment is wrong.

Stats...

Dream had 13 straight years of 20+ ppg, Duncan had a streak of 8 and 9 total.

Dream had 9 seasons at 23+ ppg, Duncan had 3.

Dream had 4 seasons of 25+ ppg, Duncan had 1 and all of Dream's were higher than Duncan's 1.

Even with his low production latter years, Dream's career FG% is higher than Timmy's.

Dream has 14 years at .500 or greater, Timmy has 8.

Dream has a higher FT%.

Dream has a higher 3PT%.

Dream has higher FG attempted percentage and higher FG made numbers.

Timmy has averaged slightly more minutes: 35.8 to 35.7 for Dream.

Defensively?

Dream leads substantially in steals and blocks.

Duncan's best year for steals (0.9) is the same as Dream's worst year, when he was 37 years old.

Dream blocked an average of 3 or more shots per game for 9 years and his career average is 3.1 bpg.

Duncan's seasonal high was 2.9, a number Dream did not fall below until he was 35 years old.

Duncan's high in RPG is 12.9, a number Dream beat 4 times (his high was 14 rpg).

Playoffs?

Dream wins FG%, 3P%, FT%, PPG, steals, blocks, and PER.

Dream had playoff PPG averages over 25 7 times, Duncan averaged 25+ PPG in the playoffs twice.

Dream was over 30 ppg twice, Duncan never.

Duncan had some great rebounding playoffs, but he never approached Dream's high of 16.8 RPG.

Duncan led the NBA in Field Goals, Free Throws, Defensive Rebounds, and Total Rebounds, all in the 01-02 season, as well as twice in games played. He also led 3 times in Defensive Rating, 1 time in Offensive Win Shares, 5 times in Defensive Win Shares, and twice in Win Shares. Total: 17.

Dream led the NBA in:

Games (4 years)
Field Goal Attempts (1)
Offensive Rebounds (1)
Defensive Rebounds (2)
Total Rebounds (2)
Blocks (2)
Rebounds Per Game (2)
Blocks Per Game (3)
Offensive Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rebounding % (2)
Total Rebounding % (1)
Defensive Rating (5)
Defensive Win Shares (4)

Total: 30.

Again, Duncan's a great player, but there is no comparison here. No slight to Duncan, but it shows how spectacular Dream was... and he was that way for 13 years before the numbers began falling off.

 

Owned.....LOL

 

4 championships to 2 for Hakeem. 176 playoff games to 145 games for Hakeem. And Hakeem's totals are 15 years. Duncan's are 13 years of totals. Over 30 games.

So when I said Duncan sustained a higher level, I am specifically speaking about those years between 1987-88 thru 90-91 when Hakeem was bounced out of the playoffs year after year. He'd reprise that 97, 98, and 2001 Duncan has only had 2 seasons recently where he was bounced in the first round.

We are not talking about making a finals run, we are talking about getting out of the first round. So, saying that Hakeem couldn't get out of the first round and blaming it on his collection of talent, just doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

THE FIRST ROUND, Hakeem was bounced 6 times in his career. To date, Duncan was only bounced twice. Say what you want about it, that's consistency, not a bunch of arbitrary numbers.

 

Funny thing is, it seems like you're the one trying to pass off the arbitrary numbers as proof.

 

That's just a sad, bitter post.

First, you're confusing me with another poster. I never made the argument about talent around the two, though anyone with a modicum of intelligence would see that argument has merit. It is telling that you are trying to conflate that subjective argument with the facts I presented, seeing as that is your last resort at supporting your idiotic position before just disappearing from this thread.

Secondly, that's why they are called averages... it means you take the games a person has played and average those numbers over the number of games. It is the best way of comparing when the number of games is not equal. None of that stats cited depend on number of games.

Third, 87-91? Seriously? You mean the years where he led the NBA in rebounding twice, blocked shots twice, and averaged 24 PPG? Even though that includes his major injury year? You mean 87, the year three starters were lost? (Incidentally, 2 of the four losses were to the Lakers and another was to the Mavs the year they went to the Conference Finals and lost to the Lakers in 7.)

Fourth, playing in more playoff games does not mean playing at a higher level. To argue so puts you in any number of untenable positions.

Fifth, in the 97 playoffs, Dream was 35 years old and it was the first year his numbers took a substantial drop. Timmy will be 35 for this year's playoffs.
We'll see how he does.

Sixth, there is nothing arbitrary about the numbers. They are what they are and they show Dream performed at a level consistently higher that Duncan in virtually all phases of the game. Even if you want to go down the rabbit hole and argue differences in the game, rules, officiating, etc., the numbers are a measure at how well they did against their peers and the game has not changed enough since Dream came in to invalidate his accomplishments. In fact, you could make a strong argument that anyone now playing who is considered in Dream's class should be putting up significantly better numbers given the lack of competition in the low post.

Finally, you are the only one talking about getting out of the first round. The rest of us are talking about how Dream and Duncan compare as basketball players.

Using your logic, Franco Harris is better than Earl Campbell and Barry Sanders combined.

 

You are clueless as usual ... Just keep digging yourself a hole.

 

You have no leg to stand on. Olajuwon was certainly a positional defender, if for no other reason than the fact that the zone was illegal. What I assume you are talking about is the fact that Dream was iock enough to cut off cutters to the lane. This does not mean he was not a positional defender. Further, I KNOW you did not get to watch Olajuwon because you have not made a single valid point. Feel free to keep digging that hole though ...

 

I'll say this and then I'm done. Im done, not because I believe my point isn't valid, but only because if you won't allow yourself to see that playoff success matters to judge a player's greatness (probably the most basic indicator in all sports to determine greatness between players), then nothing I will say will ever matter, and I might as well be talking to the wall.

I mentioned before that between 87-91 (4 years) Hakeem was bounced out of the playoffs in the first round. This was his peak years (25-28 years old). I didn't mention was the following year 92, Hakeem didn't even make the playoffs. This represents a significant stretch. It got so bad that the Rocket considered trading dream because they couldn't win with him.

There is not one player in the echelon that you want to put Hakeem in that had that bad of a stretch of playoff unsuccess. To get to players like that you have to dip to guys like Karl Malone, Moses Malone, KG, Stockton.

Whether you think it is significant or not, it is. Hakeem might be the one superstar in the history of the game that management was seriously considering a trade as beneficial to the team. Tim Duncan has never been on the block. That alone says how bad those five years were in Houston.

 

Grizzlies fans. LOL

 

If you're going to just be absurd and compare RAW stat between two diffferent eras and two different philosophies, then that same stat would show Tim Duncan to be a million times better than Hakeem at defense.

Hakeem's team has allowed 105+ ppg in 6 of his seasons. His team has allowed 100+ ppg in 9 of his seasons. Tim Duncan's team has allowed 90ppg or fewer in 9 of his seasons. That's an insanely high 10+ point differential in terms of points scored on. Even funnier, "raw" stats would say that Yao Ming has been a better defender than Hakeem. Just look at opponent PPG under Yao vs under Hakeem.

To use raw stats across generations and under vastly different philosophies is shady at best and very misleading at worst.

 

Stats can illuminate. For instance, Dream's stats show that he was consistently great and that the only reason some know-nothings believe he just played great for a few years is because his best years were phenomenal while his other great years were merely some of the best in modern basketball.

Likewise, Duncan's stats show he is consistently great. Just not as great as Dream.

And the above statement is not solely based on stats. Again, they illuminate. Having watched both since college, the stats confirm what I intuitively know. How many basketball guys would take Timmy ahead of Dream? Maybe Popovich. That's it. Dream warped the floor on both ends of the court like few ever have.

There's another argument to make: Did Timmy revolutionize the game like Dr. J did? Did he have the larger cultural influence that Magic and Bird did? Was he an innovator at his position like Magic and Dream? Did he have international influence like Dream and Drazen? No. He is a very good basketball player, but the game would look no different if he had never played.

 

When they mention greatest players ever, dream,shaq,and even moses will be ahead of duncan in my book. I'm a duncan guy, but i don't think he was in those guys class.

 

He is definitely above Moses.

 

Stats are stats, rings are rings of which Duncan has more rings and better team stats.

I don't believe Duncan ever dismantle hall of fame players in their prime at his position the way Hakeem did in consecutive seasons in the biggest stage that is the post season e.g. Patrick Ewing and David Robinson.

I respect Timmy and his achievements but Hakeem is from another planet.

 

Stats also show that Tim Duncan anchored much better defenses than Hakeem ever did. So you have Hakeem with an edge on offense. Duncan on defense. I see no response from you why Hakeem is in the same ballpark on D as Duncan. Because stats illuminate how Duncan has a huge edge here.

If anything, you make it sound like Hakeem's the stat padder while Duncan's the the true winner by playing tough defense. Which is, quite frankly, a huge disservice to Hakeem's overall game.

Except Duncan has much better resume on defense over the years than Dream ever accomplished. At least according to raw, unadjusted stats you seem to love a lot. Raw stats that really underscores Duncan's offensive game due to Popovich's offense that you like to ignore because it suits your needs.

Are we discussing who's the better player or who is the better espn sportscenter highlight reel player? I think everyone can agree that Hakeem's much flashier than Duncan could ever hope to be.

 

^^ except your "stats" consistently point to team merits... which are, obviously, team accomplishments. as rimrocker put it better, to "argue so puts you in any number of untenable positions." Or, more to the point, "Using your logic, Franco Harris is better than Earl Campbell and Barry Sanders combined."

To be even more clear, team statistics clearly matter, but in a team sport, highly dependent on a number of variables out of an individual player's control, comparing individuals should be done first on an individual basis.

To that point, I can easily and fairly argue that John Stockton was a better player than Derek Fisher, despite the huge discrepancy in team performance. But that's obvious. But the argument still works John Stockton vs. Rondo, or Stockton vs. Isiah Thomas... again, despite Stockton having never won a championship.

I do believe that Duncan played with overall greater defensive teams. But then, he had overall better defensive teammates.

On an individual basis, though, as has been pointed out, Hakeem has the much better resume, defensively and offensively. I can argue, and will do so, that if you switched Hakeem and Duncan, that Hakeem would likely have multiple MVPs and more than 4 championships. I can't say for certain Duncan would have any championships, though. Hakeem played in the best era ever for big men. Duncan's played in the best era ever for combo power forwards. big difference.

in either case, rimrocker is all over this...

 

this needs to be quoted again.

pure pwnage of what the fluck.

 

Here is a stat for you, Hakeem is number 3 all time in Defensive Wins Shares stat which estimates the number of wins contributed by a player due to his defense. Tim Duncan is number 6 all time. I'm guessing no one knew this going into the debate. :grin:

both players were great so no one should try and downgrade the other to try and prove a point. To imply Dream was just an espn highlight real center is laughable.