Bill Cosby stuns with un-PC remarks

[JeffB]

Remember that all we have are two quotes (containing lots of elipses) out of context. Seems Cosby was making two points about poor people. One about language and another about taking responsibility for one's own education--though the two may be conflated. I don't agree with his derision of people's language. These people aren't social outcasts because of their language and culture. A different dialect and culture can be the result of being social outcasts for a variety of reasons--slavery, Jim Crow, colonization, class stratification and racism among them. So, I don't expect an always class conscious and image conscious Cosby to approach this issue with any sense of context.

But I think he is correct about the responsibility for education thing. Regardless of the raw deal life gives you, you have to struggle to change your own life in a meaningful way. Whether it is through assimilation, reform or revolution or whatever--do something, anything, besides sitting on your ass bemoaning how hard your life is, being a victim to historical inequality.

Cosby didn't say anything shocking or new. African American scholars and activists have this conversation everyday. They just don't do it in such public forums where certain bigots and elitists can twist these words/criticisms towards conservative, reactionary or racist ends.

[Refman]

Originally posted by JeffB That assumes one voluntarily choses to live in one's bubble. I think the language thing is Cosby's weakest point. The real issue he points to is how poor people don't really embrace education.

Ding ding ding...we have a winner!!!

Cosby's entire point was lost in how he brought it up. This is not about language. Language is the most readily apparent symptom of the problem he highlighted.

This was the anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, and he was lamenting the fact that, in his opinion, an alarming percentage of people in the African-American community are not taking advantage of it. Cosby recalls African-Americans fighting for the chance to get an education. Now everybody has the chance for an education. He sees youth (of all races - although he specifically takes in interest in African-American youth) thumbing their nose at the chance.

This obviously bothers him greatly. It should bother everybody greatly...regardless of race.

[krosfyah]

Bama, first thing take notice that I don't disagree with a lot of what you say. But I'm correcting several intriciacies in your arguments that are too often manifested OR perceived as racist.

So if you bother to respond again, please don't call me 'stupid' again. Please take a moment to understand what I'm actually saying rather than jumping to conclusions.

Originally posted by bamaslammer I'm a racist because I and most of corporate America demand workers who can communicate properly?

If you quickly conclude somebody has less intelligence because they are African-American and talk slang...then YES...you are by definition, racist. If you don't do that, I'm not calling you racist.

The point you are making is largely correct. I'm diferentiating between a hidden racism that many people hind behind when frowning on the way people speak. I obviously wouldn't call Bill Cosby racist. But often the person who makes such a statement is doing so out of IGNORANCE...and therefore racism is the next layer of the onion.

Originally posted by bamaslammer I never said that people who speak in a dialect are ignorant, but that if they expect to get a job in the REAL WORLD, which is not your world, they must use proper grammar so they can be understood.

Re-read my message, I said exactly the same thing.

The point I was making was in a perfect world, that wouldn't be true because it is a shame that people DO hold vocabulary and accents against you.

Change Gears
(I'm not speaking in generalities...I'm talking about you) ((And anybody else reading this))

YOU should do your part when interacting with somebody that doesn't look like you, by not making conclusions before you learn about their true nature. I understand that isn't the real world because everybody obviously won't do that...but if YOU do your part, then that is a start.

Okay, shift back into normal D&D gear now.

Originally posted by bamaslammer I may understand hip-hop slang, but the average person in America does not. My Dad came up to me and asked me "What does crunk mean?"

There is a difference in using made up words and using bad grammer. Anybody can understand a black kid that uses poor grammer. Virtually nobody uses cryptic hip-hop slang (who is educated) when speaking to a teacher, co-worker, authority figure, etc. in a serious situation. I've known plenty of people to use bad grammer, however.

Originally posted by bamaslammer But there is a huge difference between speaking a second language and speaking a rude variation on another language.

I completely 100% disagree. The exteme example is the dialect that Jamaicans use. That is still english. But they can jump in/out of their dialect at a moments notice...usually. (Of course they still have the accent.)

Blacks here do the same thing. (If you haven't figured it out, I am black). If there are no whites around, we speak a particular way. Even in a casual setting, if a white person walks up, often we'll clean it up and speak normally to be polite. It is an unspoken rule. (If we don't care what you think, maybe cause we don't know you, then we may not stop). I would equate it to two spanish speakers talking and an English speaking friend walks up. Everybody starts speaking English.

Originally posted by bamaslammer Like I said before, you play like you practice. When you make a bad habit of saying such grammatical monstrosities as "Where you be," or other such phrases, you can't just switch gears when you go to work. It's not that easy.

You are dead wrong.

It IS easy. I do it constantly as do every black friend I know (which over the years would be countless hundreds of people). It is unconcious without even a thought. The key is that I know how to speak proper English and the people I choose to associate with also speak proper English. But we regularly use "hip-hop" slang or use bad grammer amounst ourselves. Frankly, it is fun and it isn't going to change anytime soon.

In fact, it is a double standard because many "black" phrases are now mainstream and used everyday. I heard a white anchor woman on CNN say "bling-bling" the other day. You hear stuff all the time. So it is okay when white people use the slang but it is frowned upon when blacks use it around other whites? It's a true doublestandard but what can you do? That's life.

If a child is brought up and never learns proper grammer, then of course that is a problem. But that is an educational problem, it has nothing to do with being African American.

Originally posted by bamaslammer It's all on parents to demand that their children (I do) speak in a proper manner and correct them when they do not. ...

Agreed. Parents are key. I'm not denying that.

Originally posted by bamaslammer Reality is that you have to be able to communicate effectively and PROPERLY to hold a job that pays anything in this country...

Agreed. If you reread my original message, you'll see that.



I am pointing out two key things.

1. Too many people hide behind the "bad grammer" thing as an excuse to degrate Aferican Americans. Not everybody...but LOTS and LOTS of people do. That is a form of racism. I'm not calling you racist unless you using grammer as an excuse to degrade blacks.

2. You should not project your value system on African Americans based on the language they use. Just because you over hear black people at a store using slang, that does not indicate anything. It is ONLY a problem if they are incapable of speaking correctly...if they chose to do so.

[Deckard]

Excellent post, krosfyah. When I was going to college, I worked construction one summer with a huge company that's now part of Halliburton. The vast majority of people I worked with had a very heavy accent and used a lot of "East Texas" slang. I found I got along much easier with them if I talked like them. (I had enough problems with long hair, etc.) It wasn't hard for me at all, and I turned it on and off as needed. Bama just doesn't get it, or he chooses not to... for the hell of it. Take your pick.

[dsnow23]

It seems that the root of the problem is that the so called lousy parents had parents that didn't have an opportunity to get a decent education because of America's racist past. African Americans weren't allowed to attend the same schools as white people. Those poorly educated people had kids that for the most part went to subpar schools. It seems like it would be more difficult to pick up habits such as "proper speech" if you live and go to school in an environment where that is not the norm.

This is certainly a generalization, but to overlook it, as Bill Cosby seems to, seems like a pretty big oversight. I also think that Bill is getting old, and like many in their old age, he doesn't seem to be thinking quite as clearly as he used to.


And, isn't he Fat Albert. Jeez.