We could make the argument Dwight is the best Rocket since Olajuwon... Maybe you could say Hardne is the best regular season player since TmacYao era.
Harden isn't Top 5 this year. Really no way to agree with that. It is pretty funny how much he's been s*** on this season for merely being Top 15 or so, though. Definitely not on the absurd levels of last year, but still very good, and still very elite offensively.
Ok so why don't you make a rational interpretation of data instead of the standard Harden hate package, which is based almost entirely on emotion and hyperbole (such as the nonexistent day he "lost" a whole city during a game nobody remembers or gives a **** about. You've failed to do so thus far. The data is there. Go for it.
Dwight has yet to play a full season as a Rocket but is the highest paid player on the team he has lead our team to nothing.. Harden pretty much did all the work last season in leading us to the playoffs while dwight missed like 60 games All those accolades he had b4 Houston dont mean shid He still has no post game no matter who coaches him..still stiff and awkward movements still mentally weak in games Kobe exposed Dwight I'll be so glad we his out of Rockets red
If no empirical analytical data or at least the ones I point out can place any blame of this team's drastic fall off on it's most high usage player, then **** empirical data... or at least your perception of empirical data. I could point to his league leading rate of turnovers or his lead leading rate of missed three pointers which in both cases lead to fastbreak buckets for the opponent but you'll just dismiss them. Let's also completely ignore that James Harden is one of the worst defensive guards in the NBA. That notion alone is worthy of a rational Rocket fan having distaste for him. I'll let you have your perception that James Harden is an 'efficient' offensive player, but his atrocities on defense alone merits a fan of this team to not want this man as the best player/leader of this team.
YOu could, but then I'd say that it's recognized for decades that the top turnover players, year in, year out are generally the most elite perimeter players of the NBA and regularly features all of the principal MVP/All NBA candidates. That is true this year, was true last year, and the year before and...pretty much always. So I guess that's why you "could" but didn't point to it? You knew it was a data point in a gray area. And it would be dismissed. Like it shoud have been. Why don't you post this data about the fast breaks created off of harden misses (or better, net points combining the makes and misses?) or....let me guess, we're just supposed to take it on faith that Harden has this happen to him an inordinate amount of times?
Nope. Inductive reasoning, common sense and GASP... I know this is going to seem obscene to you, but the 'EYE TEST'. It's very simple. Missed three pointers have a higher tendency to generate an opponent fast break opportunity due to basic physics. Also I think this is a given, but turnovers lead to opponent fast break opportunities as well. These are absurd mental gymnastics. Player leads the league in turnovers... That's a positive attribute. Okay. I guess we should cheer and clap behind our tv screens every time Harden commits a turnover because at the end of the day high turnover rates means that Harden is more 'elite'.
Dwight has been marginalized but even so his 0.86 ppp on post says his post up is fine... who cares what it looks like? That comes with a pretty high and 1 frequency. 0.86 is higher than guys like Pau, Ant Davis & Zbo. He cuts well, still one of the best roll men and has been the best player in every post season he has been here. **** Kobe & the Lakers they haven't done anything since Dwight left anyway.
Let's chart this tendency, I'll use last game - I'm not going to count his 4 makes, obviously: 5:24 20-13 James Harden misses 25-foot three point jumper 5:24 Meyers Leonard defensive rebound 20-13 5:11 Damian Lillard misses 26-foot three point pullup jump shot 20-13 OK, 0-1 1:30 27-20 James Harden misses 27-foot three point jumper 1:29 Ed Davis defensive rebound 27-20 1:22 27-20 Ty Lawson personal foul (Tim Frazier draws the foul) 0-2. 6:00 MISS Harden 24' 3PT Jump Shot 5:57 Ariza REBOUND (Off:1 Def:0) 0-3 7:56 66-40 James Harden misses 26-foot three point pullup jump shot 7:56 Mason Plumlee defensive rebound 66-40 7:47 Mason Plumlee traveling 66-40 0-4 5:43 69-42 James Harden misses 25-foot three point jumper 5:43 Mason Plumlee defensive rebound 69-42 5:24 Al-Farouq Aminu makes 25-foot three point jumper (Damian Lillard assists) 72-42 0-5, this was not a transition basket, came after 19 seconds of possession So Harden's 4-9 3 point shooting resulted in 12 points for him, 0 points off of fast break for the other team. Portland only had 11 points off of the break for the entire game (to 14 for Houston), notwithstanding the collective 7-28 3 point shooting performance of Rockets not named James Harden. Nice analysis, fchowd. Your theory about Harden's missed 3 pointers leading to an inordinate number of fast break points for the other team is clocking in at 0.0% validity, according to the data points I have uncovered in my lengthy, exhaustive investigation. Can you give me the results of your "eye test" so we can compare them?
Did the Lawson foul or Plumlee travel prevent a fast break? I ask because a lot of times players will foul to prevent a fast break for easy bucket or a team will mess up a fast break attempt after a long rebound. Missed jumpers from long range have a higher chance of resulting in a long rebound. This is fact as well as physics. If a fast break was prevented by some sort of foul or a mistake, it should still be counted IMO.
So a one game sample size where he actually shoots decently from the 3 pt line. How about his 10 turnovers? Do opponents not have more possessions to score from turnovers? Or what about him being one of the worst defensive guards in the league. I don't have the time for nuance now. I'm sorry. My classes are more important than tallying up all of James Harden's misses and turnovers on the season that converted to an easy bucket for an opponent. I just don't have the time. If you have the time then by all means tally them up. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I can only use common sense and inductive reasoning and experience watching and playing basketball that missed 3pt shots have a higher tendency to convert to an opponent's fast break opportunity than shots in the paint or mid range shots. Also I think you will even agree that turnovers lead to fastbreak opportunities for opponents.
Let's chart this tendency, I'll use one game for his TO's that I watched very closely. Rockets 103 - 121 Spurs I don't even have to check the game commentary to tell you that I remember very clearly Harden had 5 TURNOVERS resulting in 14 points directly off those turnovers. That is incredible efficiency. Astounding Effective Field Goal %, mesmerizing True Shooting %. Anyway I will do my due diligence and check. 03:54 Harden Turnover : Lost Ball (1 TO) Steal:Green (1 ST) 03:54 03:48 Green 3pt Shot: Made (15 PTS) Assist: Mills (1 AST) Ok, 1-0 (3 points) 02:47 Harden Turnover : Bad Pass (2 TO) Steal:Green (2 ST) 02:35 Aldridge Layup Shot: Made (10 PTS) 02:35 Capela Foul: Shooting (1 PF) (1 FTA) (M Smith) 02:35 Aldridge Free Throw 1 of 1 (11 PTS) Ok, 2-0 (6 points) 04:50 Harden Turnover : Bad Pass (3 TO) Stealiaw (2 ST) 04:45 Diaw Cutting Finger Roll Layup Shot: Made (9 PTS) Assist: Parker (8 AST) 04:45 Beverley Foul: Shooting (3 PF) (1 FTA) (M Smith) 04:45 Diaw Free Throw 1 of 1 (10 PTS) Ok, 3-0 (9 points) 04:25 Harden Turnover : Bad Pass (4 TO) Steal:Green (3 ST) 04:13 Leonard 3pt Shot: Made (20 PTS) Assist: Diaw (2 AST) Ok, 4-0 (12 points) 00:49.9 Harden Turnover : Bad Pass (5 TO) Steal:Mills (1 ST) 00:33.9 Ginobili Driving Finger Roll Layup Shot: Made (8 PTS) ok, 5-0 (14 points) 5 Harden Turnovers resulting in 14 points directly off those TO. Keep stating TOV% or other stats to prove his TO's are acceptable. Fact of the matter is Harden's long range bricks and Turnovers hurt this team. If you deny that, you're just basketball r****ded. Cheers
But SamFisher stated that high turnover rates just mean you are an elite player. TIL giving up 14 points to an opponent from your mistakes makes you elite.
LOL Harden turns the ball over and sixteen seconds later the Spurs score. FASTEST FAST BREAK OF ALL TIME. You guys are really nailing this argument. Seriously, bravo.
So is there really an argument trying to be made that because Harden is missing 0.8 more 3s and turning over 0.5 more times per game this year compared to last its torpedoed our defense from 8th to 24th?
Lets just timeline this for comedy Point disproved, moves to a new argument. I think you said it best Just some friendly advice, if you find yourself in agreement with FTWvillageidiotFTW on a issue, you probably need to rethink it.
Point is disproved? Really? Maybe I should have included turnovers increase opponents fastbreak opportunities AND POSSESSIONS. Dear lord... how does that entirely dismiss my statement. Bro, check your perceptive. You care too much about other posters. You have quotes from another poster in your sig to fulfill your superiority complex. Let me ask you this question larsv8. Would you have ever challenged this statement: "Turnovers lead to an increase in opponent fast break opportunities" before being a fan of Harden?
It's way better, infinitely so, than your 0 game sample size. My point is that it's not hard to perform this analysis but instead you're reverting to faith-based analytics. Have fun, that's your right but don't expect people to not call bullsh-t on you from time to time.
No. Also keep in mind that being in the top ten in points allowed and bottom ten in points allowed is separated by no more than 5 points. So, yes an increase in Harden's turnovers and long range bricks CAN have the possibility to increase opponent's ppg by a margin of 2 to 3 pts which would be PART of the Rocket's free fall in defensive rankings. It's part of the reason, not the sole reason and I have never suggested otherwise.
