Is Albert Pujols a top 10 player of all-time?

[what]

I resisted the urge to put up a poll. I'd rather have a discussion about this.

Tonight on 60 minutes, Peter Gammons called Pujols a top 10 player of all-time. I was pretty shocked by the statement, but it is Peter Gammons, one of the few journalist that could make that statement with a straight face.

I've never really put a list together of the best players ever, but judging by the shear amount of great players that have played the game, to put him in that company is pretty bold in my opinion.

Sabr top 15 lists: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/lege...lisab100.shtml

Babe Ruth
Lou Gehrig
Ted Williams
Hank Aaron
Stan Musial
Joe DiMaggio
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays
Rogers Hornsby
Honus Wagner
Walter Johnson
Mickey Mantle
Christy Mathewson
Jimmie Foxx
Warren Spahn

Who can Albert overtake on this list?

[rockets934life]

I dont think he is there...YET.

I do, however, think that by the time he is done that he will be among the elite. Guy has over 2000 Hits, 430 HRs and 1300 RBIs with an OPS over 1.000 at 31.

[Air Langhi]

He is a top 10 hitter, but even in this generation I would take arod, barry,and griffey over him just because they can play D at a gold glove caliber level in premium defensive locations. Bonds started out as a CF.

[greenhippos]

i'll say steroids aside, Clemens, Bonds, and Arod should get the nod over Pujols at the moment.

I would also say given the time periods they played, Nap Lajoie and Joe Jackson were better baseball players.

[Shroopy2]

Peter Gammons on Baseball Tonight once commented "Richard Justice, who's probably one of the sports writers, EVER"

Credibility damaged.

Though Gammons is good guy.

[gah]

Alberto Pujols is a consummate professional and I hope he retires with the spotless track record he has sustained since day one. The guy is underappreciated maybe because he doesn’t play for the Yanks or Rd Sx or maybe because he is low-key like sea shells. Considering the context (Can you name a player as good or better that is not stained?) he is the best thing that has happened to baseball in as far as I can tell.

To think the guy is only 31 is astonishing in this day and age of middle to late bloomers. Whether he makes it to the top 10, or to the top 3 conversation, is a question of durability and nothing else.

[HI Mana]

What about the fact that some of the "best ever" never played in integrated leagues? Don't you think that automatically knocks them down a peg? Imagine a league without C.C. Sabathia, Lincecum, King Felix, David Price, Matt Garza, Jaime Garcia, Anibal Sanchez, Ervin Santana, Ubaldo Jimenez, Michael Pineda, Johnny Cueto and many more? Furthermore, no Mariano Rivera, Neftali Feliz, K-Rod, Carlos Marmol, Joakim Soria, etc? No guys like Franklin Gutierez, Denard Span, Andrew McCutcheon, Carl Crawford to rob outfield hits and HRs? Basically, remove 1/3 of active players, and you get pre-integration baseball.

Additionally, if a player never tests positive for steroids, you have to give him way more credit for doing it clean against probably 75+% of people juicing for an advantage, whereas in Ruth/Gehrig/Williams's time, juicing meant the pitchers hit happy hour before the game.

Even with all that being said, here's how Pujols stacks up against some of the all-time great position players; it's definitely not out of the question that if he continues at a normal aging curve, he'll no doubt be in the top 10 of all time.

[AXG]

Originally Posted by HI Mana Imagine a league without C.C. Sabathia, Lincecum, King Felix, David Price, Matt Garza, Jaime Garcia, Anibal Sanchez, Ervin Santana, Ubaldo Jimenez, Michael Pineda, Johnny Cueto and many more? Furthermore, no Mariano Rivera, Neftali Feliz, K-Rod, Carlos Marmol, Joakim Soria, etc? No guys like Franklin Gutierez, Denard Span, Andrew McCutcheon, Carl Crawford to rob outfield hits and HRs?

Lincecum?

[HI Mana]

Originally Posted by AXG Lincecum?

Filipino. Maybe that was close enough to "Native American" so he could get a pass?

[Nook]

Originally Posted by HI Mana What about the fact that some of the "best ever" never played in integrated leagues? Don't you think that automatically knocks them down a peg? Imagine a league without C.C. Sabathia, Lincecum, King Felix, David Price, Matt Garza, Jaime Garcia, Anibal Sanchez, Ervin Santana, Ubaldo Jimenez, Michael Pineda, Johnny Cueto and many more? Furthermore, no Mariano Rivera, Neftali Feliz, K-Rod, Carlos Marmol, Joakim Soria, etc? No guys like Franklin Gutierez, Denard Span, Andrew McCutcheon, Carl Crawford to rob outfield hits and HRs? Basically, remove 1/3 of active players, and you get pre-integration baseball.

Flawed logic... when the guys in the 30's and 40's played, they didn't have the competition of football and basketball taking away the best athletes. Now many premium players are going to the NBA and NFL. Further, hispanics like Lefty Gomez played in MLB during that time period.

Originally Posted by HI Mana Additionally, if a player never tests positive for steroids, you have to give him way more credit for doing it clean against probably 75+% of people juicing for an advantage, whereas in Ruth/Gehrig/Williams's time, juicing meant the pitchers hit happy hour before the game.

Why do I "have to".... because they did not test positive does not mean they did or did not to it. A few years ago no one knew A-Rod did it.

Originally Posted by HI Mana Even with all that being said, here's how Pujols stacks up against some of the all-time great position players; it's definitely not out of the question that if he continues at a normal aging curve, he'll no doubt be in the top 10 of all time.

Off the top of my head, give me: Cobb, Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Hornsby, Bonds, Johnson, Clemens, Mathewson, Carlton, Seaver and Spahn over Pujols.

[heypartner]

wow...so that list hasn't changed in THIRTY FIVE years....really, sabr. No one new since Hank Aaron retired.

and only 3 pitchers. What a profoundly bad list. What other sport wouldn't change their top 15 in thirty five years.

[juicystream]

Originally Posted by heypartner wow...so that list hasn't changed in THIRTY FIVE years....really, sabr. No one new since Hank Aaron retired. and only 3 pitchers. What a profoundly bad list. What other sport wouldn't change their top 15 in thirty five years.

Well, it is only through 1999, so it could be different, of course steroids has ruined how we view Bonds and Clemens, who would be locks for top 10 status without the cloud.

Having few pitchers isn't a big surprise. There are 8 position players compared to the 3 to 5 man rotations that existed over baseball's history.

[heypartner]

1999 or 2011...doesn't matter. That list is missing 3 decades of baseball. Three decades.

No one on that list is younger than 77 yrs old.
No one on that list was a rookie after 1954.
No one who was in the prime in the 70s, 80s or 90s is on that list.

Two of the three pitchers were rookies in 1900 and 1907. Mathewson never played when there was such a thing as home runs. Johnson barely did.

There are at least 5 pitchers who have overtaken Warren Spahn.

That is a profoundly bad list for refusing to include anyone from the 70s, 80s and 90s. Think about it...no championship team for the 70s,80s,90s has a representative on that list.

No other sport would put out such a glaringly biased Top 15.

[rolyat93]

Originally Posted by heypartner 1999 or 2011...doesn't matter. That list is missing 3 decades of baseball. Three decades. No one on that list is younger than 77 yrs old. No one on that list was a rookie after 1954. No one who was in the prime in the 70s, 80s or 90s is on that list. Two of the three pitchers where rookies in 1900 and 1907. Mathewson never played when there was such a thing as home runs. Johnson barely did. There are at least 5 pitchers who have overtaken Warren Spahn. That is a profoundly bad list for refusing to include anyone from championship teams in the 70s, 80s and 90s. No other sport would put out such a glaringly biased Top 15.

Baseball is an old man's sport, It's dying away because it refuses to adjust to changing times(See: Instant Replay)
Also, I live in Houston Texas so any question about Pujols and my immediate response is always Albert Sucks.

[greenhippos]

Buth
Gehrig
Foxx
Musial
Jackson
Lajoie
Bonds
Clemens
Cobb
Wagner
Horsnby


I won't even throw out the pitchers from the early era of baseball. But that's 11 players I can't see given Pujols' numbers right now he can be better than.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by greenhippos Buth Gehrig Foxx Musial Jackson Lajoie Bonds Clemens Cobb Wagner Horsnby I won't even throw out the pitchers from the early era of baseball. But that's 11 players I can't see given Pujols' numbers right now he can be better than.

That's the thing though... it won't be just Pujols' numbers right now. When it's all said and done, he will be right there with the all-time greats. Possibly better than Musial. Definitely the best of the modern era.

What the guy has done since DAY ONE has been unprecedented. I was there in St. Louis when he busted out in 2001... thinking it would be a fluke. I touted Lance Berkman and Roy Oswalt would be the "sure things" while Pujols would be a one-hit wonder and go the way that Big Mac (McGwire) was going at the time.

What the hell did I know. Clearly I was just witnessing something special... once in a generation-type players that are just too good to be contained.

[greenhippos]

Originally Posted by Nick That's the thing though... it won't be just Pujols' numbers right now. When it's all said and done, he will be right there with the all-time greats. Possibly better than Musial. Definitely the best of the modern era. What the guy has done since DAY ONE has been unprecedented. I was there in St. Louis when he busted out in 2001... thinking it would be a fluke. I touted Lance Berkman and Roy Oswalt would be the "sure things" while Pujols would be a one-hit wonder and go the way that Big Mac (McGwire) was going at the time. What the hell did I know. Clearly I was just witnessing something special... once in a generation-type players that are just too good to be contained.

On the other side, what if his numbers drop off a cliff? There isn't a 0% possibility that this could happen. On the other hand, if he goes for back to back to back .315 40/130/100 type numbers, which he most certainly could, he'll shoot all the way up to top 5 or 6.

[Nick]

First player ever to hit 30+ HR in each and every one of his first 11 years of his career.

He's not going to lose his hitting ability till at least his mid to late 30's, barring injury.

He's got 4-5 years of solid prime years left... scary.

[what]

Originally Posted by Nick First player ever to hit 30+ HR in each and every one of his first 11 years of his career. He's not going to lose his hitting ability till at least his mid to late 30's, barring injury. He's got 4-5 years of solid prime years left... scary.

This got me thinking about Darryl Strawberry, the guy was 15 home runs shy over a 9 year span to having 30 homers for his first 9 seasons.

[jank1434]

Originally Posted by what This got me thinking about Darryl Strawberry, the guy was 15 home runs shy over a 9 year span to having 30 homers for his first 9 seasons.

There is a rumor that I got from a reliable source, Doug Gottlieb I think, that Pujols has a budding cocaine problem. I can only hope that this is true.