The Myth about TMac Carrying the Rockets

crash5179 · 01-19-2009, 07:56 AM

I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do.

As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again.

By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN.

The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year?

I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim.

TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

Shay · 01-19-2009, 08:06 AM

When T-Mac comes back the ball movement will not be as fluid no question.

But it's not because T-Mac is a ball hog a lot of times his teammates are content giving him the ball and letting him create something.

Now , when he comes back they need to find the balance between ball movement and iso's , you can't win without ball movement but when you have a player of T-Mac's and Yao's caliber they have to get some chances to exploit theor mismatchess and create for themselves and others through some iso's.

crash5179 · 01-19-2009, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shay

When T-Mac comes back the ball movement will not be as fluid no question.

But it's not because T-Mac is a ball hog a lot of times his teammates are content giving him the ball and letting him create something.

Now , when he comes back they need to find the balance between ball movement and iso's , you can't win without ball movement but when you have a player of T-Mac's and Yao's caliber they have to get some chances to exploit theor mismatchess and create for themselves and others through some iso's.

I was anticipating that argument to come out....

I also happen to think it is a valid argument but I don't know the cause for it. I had high hopes that trading for Artest would more or less stop that but who knows.

flamingdts · 01-19-2009, 08:19 AM

The offense last year after McGrady's return was nothing like this year.

McGrady moved more quickly, more fluidly, and we were winning. We weren't winning with RA's traditional motion offense, we were winning with RA's hybrid offense.

Last year's playoffs were a lack of effort from our entire team. As Rockets fans how can we shift the blame to McGrady last year? This year he should take up most of the blames, but last year's playoffs? McGrady has done a great job the past few years, and as fans we need to respect that.

However, despite our success in last year's regular season, our team still had a relatively new chemistry at the end of the day. The pressure got the better of almost all our players. Only Alston and McGrady showed up, and when you have Alston as your key to winning, then we've got a problem (even though Alston was on fire last year).

This is the reason why we're winning with just Yao, RA was able to build a new offense around our star players.

That being said, misleading thread title.

crash5179 · 01-19-2009, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flamingdts

The offense last year after McGrady's return was nothing like this year.

McGrady moved more quickly, more fluidly, and we were winning. We weren't winning with RA's traditional motion offense, we were winning with RA's hybrid offense.

Last year's playoffs were a lack of effort from our entire team. As Rockets fans how can we shift the blame to McGrady last year? This year he should take up most of the blames, but last year's playoffs? McGrady has done a great job the past few years, and as fans we need to respect that.

However, despite our success in last year's regular season, our team still had a relatively new chemistry at the end of the day. The pressure got the better of almost all our players. Only Alston and McGrady showed up, and when you have Alston as your key to winning, then we've got a problem (even though Alston was on fire last year).

This is the reason why we're winning with just Yao, RA was able to build a new offense around our star players.

That being said, misleading thread title.

The title of the thread is not meant to be misleading but in fact many believe that Rockets are better when McGrady carry's the offense and I say that is a myth.

The Rockets are better when McGrady plays a role in the offense and is not THE offense. I am not blaming McGrady but clearly this has been a problem.

I will take our current offense with out McGrady over the McGady dominated offense at the end of last season when McGady was "Carrying the Rockets".

KingCheetah · 01-19-2009, 08:37 AM

So now T-Mac has so transcended time and space he has actually become a living myth..?

Easy · 01-19-2009, 08:42 AM

What do you mean by "carrying"? You seems to think that "carrying" means the offense depends on him creating. If so, you may have a point.

But if "carrying" means that he was the most important player on the team and without him we could not have won so many games, than no, that's not a myth.

roslolian · 01-19-2009, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash5179

I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do.

As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again.

By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN.

The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year?

I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim.

TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

Um can you say revisionist history? Remember that our roster last year consisted of Tmac, Shane Battier, Yao Ming, Scola, two rookies, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Bobby Jackson. Take Yao Ming and Tmac out of that lineup and you have quite possibly one of the worst rosters in the league, and last year was the most competitive western conference in recent memory. Tmac HAD to carry us to the playoffs. If he hadn't played like JOrdan + Magic combined we would have been a lottery team. Your argument is moot because when Yao Ming went down without Tmac we were nothing last year

Regarding the offense, its been well documented that Tmac is not going to thrive in an Adelman offense. Passing, cutting and spotting up is just not his game. Tmac has high bball IQ but I think not playing in college stunted his growth somewhat; I don't think he learned to move without the ball. More importantly, he just not a good shooter-in Adelman's offense you really need good shooters like Peja Stojakovic or Mike Bibby to take advantage of all the open looks you get by cutting and passing the ball, and unfortunately our big 3just doesn't play that way.

crash5179 · 01-19-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roslolian

Um can you say revisionist history? Remember that our roster last year consisted of Tmac, Shane Battier, Yao Ming, Scola, two rookies, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Bobby Jackson. Take Yao Ming and Tmac out of that lineup and you have quite possibly one of the worst rosters in the league, and last year was the most competitive western conference in recent memory. Tmac HAD to carry us to the playoffs. If he hadn't played like JOrdan + Magic combined we would have been a lottery team. Your argument is moot because when Yao Ming went down without Tmac we were nothing last year

Regarding the offense, its been well documented that Tmac is not going to thrive in an Adelman offense. Passing, cutting and spotting up is just not his game. Tmac has high bball IQ but I think not playing in college stunted his growth somewhat; I don't think he learned to move without the ball. More importantly, he just not a good shooter-in Adelman's offense you really need good shooters like Peja Stojakovic or Mike Bibby to take advantage of all the open looks you get by cutting and passing the ball, and unfortunately our big 3just doesn't play that way.

Revisionist history?

Maybe you are a victom of revisionist history. At the beggining of every year it seams that everyone is so excited about all the talent we have and by the end of every year we have one of the least talented teams around TMac.

While you may not like the message I don't think my post is false in any way.

My main point is that the offense is much better when everyone is involved and not dominated by TMac or ony other single player for that matter. You seem to disagree.

flamingdts · 01-19-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash5179

Revisionist history?

Maybe you are a victom of revisionist history. At the beggining of every year it seams that everyone is so excited about all the talent we have and by the end of every year we have one of the least talented teams around TMac.

While you may not like the message I don't think my post is false in any way.

My main point is that the offense is much better when everyone is involved and not dominated by TMac or ony other single player for that matter. You seem to disagree.

McGrady involves everyone in the offense last year and the previous years. It's the matter of whether the role players take advatange of it.

For the past 2 years, in Yao's absense fans have constantly complained about the lack of finishers in our roster. Battier was our most reliable shooter. When it came to playoffs, none of our players showed up. Even if McGrady tried to include them on the offense, we won't produce anything.

Not to mention, we have star players. If McGrady can put up 20 pts a night, then RA should take advantage of it, if Yao can grab 15 rebounds and 20pts a night, RA needs to take advantage of it.

RA's job is to distribute the roles in our team, but he shouldn't be doing it to the point where it forces our star players to play below their talent level. In all winning teams, it takes 5 and ISO to win.

topfive · 01-19-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roslolian

Remember that our roster last year consisted of Tmac, Shane Battier, Yao Ming, Scola, two rookies, Dikembe Mutombo, Rafer Alston, Chuck Hayes and Bobby Jackson. Take Yao Ming and Tmac out of that lineup and you have quite possibly one of the worst rosters in the league

True, that would be one of the worst rosters in the league -- but not one of the worst TEAMS. And that's the entire point the OP is trying to make: Building a championship-caliber squad is much more than just finding the best players. The Celtics won it all last year not because they had the "big three," but because they all bought into a team game and executed it to perfection. Great coaching and great chemistry can do a lot to overcome roster deficiencies.

As far as T-Mac goes, the OP may be right. Problem is, unless Morey stumbles onto a no-brainer T-Mac trade (not likely at this point), we're not going to find out until the 2010-2011 season. Then again, if he comes back and the offense gets sluggish, maybe someone can Gillooly him.

jevon3012 · 01-19-2009, 01:15 PM

The problem is you can't run a pure motion offence in the playoffs because the defence played in the playoffs is much different from that of the regular season. Teams gameplan for your shooters so your ball movement will never hit an open shooter but instead go to your bad shooters(Rafer). For an example of this, see: luther head.

Because there is far less double teaming in the playoffs, you absolutely need stars to step up big. Just look at the Pistons the last few years. Great team offence but they can't get it done at the end of games in the playoffs for lack of a superstar.

wekko368 · 01-19-2009, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jevon3012

Just look at the Pistons the last few years. Great team offence but they can't get it done at the end of games in the playoffs for lack of a superstar.

Who was their superstar in 2004?

DudeWah · 01-19-2009, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wekko368

Who was their superstar in 2004?

His name was Rasheed Wallace

pmac · 01-19-2009, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash5179

From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim.

TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

I'm not sure i agree with this. Other than Olajuwon and Jordan there's the Kobe/Shaq lakers, the Kidd Nets, the Iverson Sixers, the Wade/Shaq heat team, Nash's suns, and even Duncan/Parker/Manu have the ball in their hands a considerable amount more than their teammates.

I think the only reason we're even having a discussion like this is because Mcgrady has played like garbage this entire seaason. In the past, when Mcgrady plays, we usually have a pretty good record and even when Yao is out. The issue is really how good Mcgrady is. If he's playing terrible when he gets back it doesn't matter if he's playing in the system or not we are probably better off without him. If he's playing as we've seen him play in the past then we are a better team with him.

Blake · 01-19-2009, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crash5179

I am not going to argue if TMac actually carried the Rockets at times last year and more specifically into the play offs. What I want to know….is it true that he had to carry the Rockets and would the Rockets have been better served if they had gone into the play offs playing more like a team and not so reliant on what TMac could or could not do.

As I recall last season, the Rockets really started spreading the ball around and playing good team ball with TMac out. When TMac came back off of injury he did not just start dominating the ball or the offense he just tried to blend in with the offense. Slowly but surely he began dominating the offense. The ball stopped moving around like it had been and with Yao out TMac was starting to dominate the offense once again.

By the time we made it to the play offs the offense looked like TMac and whatever Rafer could give us that night. When Rafer was out it was more or less just TMac and we lost to Utah…AGAIN.

The argument many have against Wafer is that he can not carry a team like TMac can and the TMac carried this team into the play offs last year. So there really is no argument about TMac dominating the offense last season. But was that best for the team. Would it be best for the team this year?

I think RA has been preaching and many of us think it is best to have a total team offense and not one that is dominated by one player. Not to say one player can’t have dominating performances but everyone needs to be involved with the offense. When and if TMac comes back he needs to play a role on the offense not dominate the offense. The truly great offensive teams never relied on one player and one player never dominated the offense. From the Show Time Lakers to RA’s Kings, the great offenses included the whole team and did not start and stop with the same player. Unless Hakeem Olajuwon or Michael Jordan are on your team the chance for success when one player dominates the offense is slim.

TMac carrying the Rockets is a recipe for failure…just like it has been since he has been a Rocket.

You really think that we would have won 22 in a row without TMac taking over after Yao went down 10 games in?

No way. We needed him at that point. Now, not as much...

leebigez · 01-19-2009, 09:32 AM

With this so called ball movement, they have scored 100 and 98 pts. Ball movement always look better against poor teams and when the ball goes in. Also notice when the game because a lower dynamic, you have to het the ball in the hands of your best decision maker. The kings were a fluid offense, but when the game got tight, it was pick and roll with bibby. When La get into close games, its kobe pick and role. How many times did kobe run high pick and role with bynum. In money time, you don't want scola handling the ball as much as tracy.

crash5179 · 01-19-2009, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leebigez

With this so called ball movement, they have scored 100 and 98 pts. Ball movement always look better against poor teams and when the ball goes in. Also notice when the game because a lower dynamic, you have to het the ball in the hands of your best decision maker. The kings were a fluid offense, but when the game got tight, it was pick and roll with bibby. When La get into close games, its kobe pick and role. How many times did kobe run high pick and role with bynum. In money time, you don't want scola handling the ball as much as tracy.

We don't have anyone on our team with Kobe's skill or ability.

I disagree with your arguments about the Kings. I disagree a lot.

Everyone from Bobby Jackson to CWebb to got involved. Bibby or Peja...the Kings did not care who was hot but they were always more than willing to get in that players hands if they could. If they couldn't they just let the open man take the shot.

ArtV · 01-19-2009, 11:05 AM

I like distributing the load, BUT I don't like it when Rafer and company (Brooks) are jacking up more shots than our stars (right now that means Yao). There has to be a way to get Yao 20 shots a night and limit Rafer to 10. We can't just let the open man shoot - there is a reason he's open.

DaDakota · 01-19-2009, 11:11 AM

It is a balance, you need your star players to play their roles, and that means sometimes they have to trust others in clutch situations to make a play, either a bucket or a pass.

Because if teams know that TMac will always have the ball, it is too easy to guard.

Having multiple weapons is the way to win. You still have your better players making the majority of the plays...Yao, Tmac, Artest etc...but the other players are more involved too, and that creates a very difficult matchup for any team.

Look at the Lakers, they have people who can score the ball all over the floor.....the Rockets have the players now, they just need to trust each other.

And, even though it is not fair, the truth is that one guy was screwing up that trust, he needs to come in and play his role, if Tracy does that, the team is SOOOO much better.

DD