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A "net possessions created" stat (applied to Rockets)

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by durvasa, Nov 14, 2007.

  1. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    This is a stat I just came up with for trying to capture those "little things" people always talk about. It's just based on the box score, so a lot of things (charges, movement without the ball, making smart passes, defensive rotations, etc.) aren't included here. But its a starting point.

    The idea is to quantify how players "create possessions" for their team. What do I mean by this? Basically, anything you do give your team a possession while taking a possession from another team is a created possession. And when you miss a shot or turn the ball over, that's like using up a possession. I wanted to combine the information in the box score to capture the net created possessions a player gives his team.

    I think this is an important, but often under-appreciated aspect of basketball. We tend to focus on how players generate points with the possessions given. But not what players do to actually give their teams opportunities to generate points, while limiting the other team's opportunities.

    This is the formula (albeit imperfect) that I use:

    net_poss_creation = 0.7*orb + 0.3*drb + stl - tov + 0.7*blk - 0.7*missed_FG

    I chose the weights based on my view of their relative importance. That's open to debate.

    Here's what the average is for this stat, by position, across the league:

    Code:
          [B]PC/40MIN[/B]
    PG     -6.4  
    SG     -5.2
    SF     -4.3
    PF     -1.4
    C       0.1
    Tot    -3.7
    
    Naturally, the stat will favor bigs. They are generally less active in generating points and consuming possessions, but they do the "blue collar" work in getting their team the ball.

    Here are the top 20 players in the league thus far, per minute (minimum of 80 minutes played):

    Code:
         [B]Player              Team      Min     PC/40MIN[/B]
    1    skinner,brian       pho       90       7.8
    [B]2    hayes,chuck         hou       190      7.2[/B]
    3    camby,marcus        den       272      5.7
    4    haywood,brendan     was       175      5.7
    5    bynum,andrew        lal       144      5.3
    6    diop,desagana       dal       201      5.0
    7    hollins,ryan        cha       88       5.0
    8    evans,reggie        phi       175      4.6
    9    okafor,emeka        cha       235      4.3
    10   foster,jeff         ind       164      3.8
    11   marion,shawn        pho       297      2.8
    12   oberto,fabricio     san       143      2.8
    13   collison,nick       sea       217      2.6
    14   balkman,renaldo     nyk       93       2.6
    15   perkins,kendrick    bos       154      2.6
    16   chandler,tyson      nor       258      2.4
    17   smith,jason         phi       106      2.3
    18   maxiell,jason       det       127      2.3
    19   najera,eduardo      den       178      2.1
    20   smith,joe           chi       118      1.9
    

    And here are the numbers for Rockets players:

    Code:
        [B]Player            Team      Min     PC/40MIN[/B]
    1   hayes,chuck       hou       190       7.2
    2   mutombo,dikembe   hou       31        5.7
    3   battier,shane     hou       288      -0.5
    4   scola,luis        hou       137      -0.9
    5   ming,yao          hou       302      -2.3
    6   wells,bonzi       hou       177      -2.8
    7   head,luther       hou       92       -4.0
    8   alston,rafer      hou       207      -6.0
    9   james,mike        hou       193      -7.7
    10  mcgrady,tracy     hou       302      -9.6
    
    Not surprisingly, Chuck's one of the league leaders. He's getting four times as many steals as turnovers (pretty much unheard of), and that's not even considering all the other forced turnovers he's caused (e.g. charges, forced travels). He goes after the offensive boards, and he rarely takes a shot (so rarely misses). Tracy McGrady is near the bottom of the league in this particular stat, but that's to be expected for a player who's primary role on the team is to generate points (either for himself, or facilitating others). That's obviously an important job, and he's pretty good at it, and its up to others to give him possessions to work with.
     
    #1 durvasa, Nov 14, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2007
  2. TeamUSA

    TeamUSA Member

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    durvasa=morey.


    thanks.
     
  3. Man-Dingo

    Man-Dingo Member

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    How does this stat exactly help us to make Adelman see the light
     
  4. pirc1

    pirc1 Member

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    Never mind.
     
  5. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Adelman doesn't need any help from me. We all can learn a lot more from him than he'd ever need to learn from us.
     
  6. Hayesfan

    Hayesfan Member

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    Interesting. It's sort of a modified on court off court stat.

    And its not saying any of these players are the best players, they are the best at creating multiple opportunities to score... not just using the available possessions, which is what TMac does and what we want him to do... so of course he's going to be low. He's not creating more opportunities, his job is to use the opportunities created.

    I am thinking the .7* on the block and missed fg might be where you might be able to adjust the numbers. The offensive and defensive rebounding seem about right.

    A block should probably bring more of a weight than missing a shot.
     
  7. Man-Dingo

    Man-Dingo Member

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    Haha, i guess Adelman must be the only perfect human being around this side of the globe
     
  8. Old Man Rock

    Old Man Rock Contributing Member

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    Not to put down the effort but looks like Moneyball on crack... in the end it seems to be much ado about nothing. Chuck gets steals yes but he also gets fouls and misses open shots and free throws. Not saying chuck is bad but when he is on the court the other team outscores us. Our best team seems to be when we go small with Bonzi and Battier at the forwards.
     
  9. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    The rationale with weighting them the same is if you get a block, you're forcing a missed shot by the opponent. They're like mirror images of eachother.

    And I weight an offensive rebound the same as a missed shot because if you get the offensive boards but follow that up with a missed shot, your net impact is zero.
     
  10. WNBA

    WNBA Member

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    When you are not a scorer, you'd better create positive posessions.
    When you are using posessions, you'd better use them efficiently.


    Hayes is good, very good. Our PF is set.

    Rafer and James are apparently not.
     
  11. Man-Dingo

    Man-Dingo Member

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    our PF is not set, it is manageable, but definitely not set, atleast not in the NBA. It might be set in the WNBA, NCAA or Euroleague, get my point,

    The only positions set on this team is Center and SF, i wouldn't be surprised if there was an overhaul sometime
     
  12. NIKEstrad

    NIKEstrad Member

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    durvasa --

    Have you considered taking out missed FG's? I know the whole idea is possessions, and the ball changes hands on missed FG's in general, but it seems counter-intuitive to penalize a guy for missing shots he's supposed to take in the flow of the game, but not penalizing the guy who goes for the steal and misses. Another way to think about the stat may be game flow change -- blocks/steals create turnovers, rebounds happen in loose ball situations.

    Conversely, what about missed FTs?

    Cool stat!
     
  13. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs Member

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    durvasa - you should do posessions-created VS usage rate stat, i think that would be much more informative than straight possession created.
     
  14. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    When Chuck's on the court, the other team outscores us? That simply isn't what the evidence shows.

    Per 100 possessions, we were +9.1 with him in 05/06, and +11.5 with him in 06/07. And early on this season (it's REALLY early), we are +3.5 with him.

    And people always say that Chuck misses open shots. Every player misses shots around the basket from time to time when they are trying to get it up over a defender. How many times has Yao or T-mac blown an easy layup? With Chuck, he only attempts shots around the basket, so when he misses people will magnify it. The fact is he's been a 57% shooter coming into this season. This year, he's *surprise* 57%. We're not talking about a Ben Wallace or Jason Collins -- guys who struggle to convert on even half of their shot attempts. Chuck, for the role he plays, is perfectly adequate in his finishing capabilities.
     
  15. WNBA

    WNBA Member

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    fouls and FTA should also be considered.
     
  16. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    The idea is novel and your effort should be applauded. There is one major problem though, and you probably noted: the formula unmistakably favors players who take few shots (or better yet, no shots at all), so much so it renders major scorers like McGrady catastrophically disastrous in "creating possessions." One way to get around this problem is to take into consideration field goals made. If a player shoots well over 50% on his field goal attempts, you can not seriously treat him as a squanderer of the good possessions his teammates painstakingly create for him.
     
    #16 wnes, Nov 14, 2007
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2007
  17. michecon

    michecon Member

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    hmmm. blue collar index?

    basically if you don't shoot the ball, don't handle the ball, just rebound, you are in business for this stat.
     
  18. durvasa

    durvasa Member

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    Initially, I didn't include missed FGs, actually. But then I thought it made sense to include it if I wanted to capture the net possessions created. Here are the ratings when I exclude missed FGs:

    Code:
            [B]Player                Team      Min       PC2/MIN[/B]
    1       skinner,brian         pho       90        9.6
    2       camby,marcus          den       272       8.3
    3       bynum,andrew          lal       144       8.1
    4       haywood,brendan       was       175       7.7
    5       hayes,chuck           hou       190       7.7
    6       okafor,emeka          cha       235       7.5
    7       marion,shawn          pho       297       7.4
    8       hollins,ryan          cha       88        7.0
    9       smith,joe             chi       118       6.8
    10      collison,nick         sea       217       6.6
    11      evans,reggie          phi       175       6.5
    12      smith,jason           phi       106       6.2
    13      diop,desagana         dal       201       6.1
    14      foster,jeff           ind       164       6.0
    15      stoudemire,amare      pho       129       6.0
    16      garnett,kevin         bos       238       5.8
    17      foyle,adonal          orl       97        5.6
    18      ilgauskas,zydrun      cle       268       5.5
    19      kaman,chris           lac       222       5.4
    20      thomas,tyrus          chi       161       5.4
    
    And for the Rockets:
    Code:
            [B]Player                Team      Min       PC2/MIN[/B]
    1       hayes,chuck           hou       190       7.7
    2       mutombo,dikembe       hou       31        5.7
    3       wells,bonzi           hou       177       4.3
    4       ming,yao              hou       302       3.3
    5       scola,luis            hou       137       3.1
    6       battier,shane         hou       288       2.8
    7       james,mike            hou       193       1.5
    8       mcgrady,tracy         hou       302       0.9
    9       alston,rafer          hou       207       0.7
    10      head,luther           hou       92        0.3
    
     
  19. Hayesfan

    Hayesfan Member

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    what about fouls? Would that make an impact?

    Though it may be a different weight for fouls resulting in free throws vs fouls resulting is change of possession.
     
  20. wnes

    wnes Contributing Member

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    Turnover numbers include offensive fouls.
     

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