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HuffPo: Obamacare rollout has been a complete disaster.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by bigtexxx, Oct 18, 2013.

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  1. TheresTheDagger

    TheresTheDagger Member

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    http://rsc.scalise.house.gov/solutions/rsc-betterway.htm

    I present to you H.R. Bill 3121.

    Yes. Republicans have offered a valid alternative that didn't involve a complete takeover of 1/6th of the economy.
     
    #261 TheresTheDagger, Oct 30, 2013
  2. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    That's not a health care plan, that's a shopping card for the well off. Haha, you can't seriously think that people making $35k a year are going to put $10k in a flexible spending account to pay their health care costs!

    Oh, and when you are lower middle class, deduction health care from your income taxes doesn't really save you a whole lot of money unless you make a whole lot of money.
     
    #262 Sweet Lou 4 2, Oct 31, 2013
  3. esteban

    esteban Member

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    You will make a whole lot of money when you no longer have that Barry' turd baby hanging around your neck. I'll take this 100 page bill over you guys' turd baby any day of the week.
    You don't have to pass this bill to know what's in it.
     
    #263 esteban, Oct 31, 2013
  4. Bandwagoner

    Bandwagoner Contributing Member

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    Government services are crap and always will be.
     
    #264 Bandwagoner, Oct 31, 2013
  5. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    The Borscht Belt Republicans:

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<time datetime="2013-10-30T18:57:16+00:00" title="October 30, 2013, 2:57 pm">
October 30, 2013, 2:57 pm</time>
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						<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/borscht-belt-republicans/#postComment">24 Comments</a></span>	</div>
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<div class="entry-content"><p>Has anyone else noticed how much the GOP position on Obamacare resembles the classic borscht belt joke about the two ladies at a Catskills resort? Lady #1: “The food here is so terrible, it’s inedible!” Lady #2: “And the portions are so small!” Republican #1: “Obamacare is slavery!” Republican #2: “And it’s so hard to sign up!”</p>
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</div><div class="box module nocontent"><h4>About Paul Krugman</h4><div class="entry">
<p class="summary">Paul Krugman is an Op-Ed columnist for The New York Times.</p>

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<li><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/ref/opinion/KRUGMAN-BIO.html">Biography »</a></li>
<li><a href="http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/paulkrugman/index.html">Columns »</a></li>
<h6 class="kicker">Books</h6>
<li><a href="http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?ID=4294971028">End This Depression Now!</a> (2013)</li>
<li><a href="http://www.worthpublishers.com/newcatalog.aspx?search=krugman&amp;isbn=0716771586">Principles of Economics, 2nd ed.</a> (2009)</li>
<li><a href="http://www.krugmanonline.com/books/the-return-of-depression-economics-and-the-crisis-of-2008.php" target="new" alt="The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008">The Return of Depression Economics and the Crisis of 2008</a> (Dec. 2008)</li>
<li><a href="http://www.krugmanonline.com/books/the-conscience-of-a-liberal.php" target="new" alt="KrugmanOnline.com">The Conscience of a Liberal</a> (Oct. 2007)</li></ul>
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	<div class="box module nocontent"><h4>Book</h4><div class="entry book">
<a href="http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?ID=4294971028"><img alt="End This Depression Now!" src="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs_v3/krugman/krugman-end-this-depression-now.png" class="w75 left"></a>
<h5><a title="End This Depression Now!" href="http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?ID=4294971028">End This Depression Now!</a></h5>
<p class="summary">How bad have things gotten? How did we get stuck in what now can only be called a depression? And, most of all, how do we free ourselves? A call-to-arms from Paul Krugman.</p>
<ul class="refer">
  <li><a href="http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detail.aspx?ID=4294971028" title="End This Depression Now! | W. W. Norton &amp; Company">Buy the book »</a></li>
</ul>
</div></div><div class="box module nocontent"><div class="entry">
<p class="summary">Some links to stuff I’ve written bearing on macroeconomic policy. Read all of them, and you’ll have a good sense of where I’m coming from. </p></div>
<div class="col2">
<div class="subColA">
<div class="entry">
<ul class="refer">

<li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/27/a-dark-age-of-macroeconomics-wonkish/">A Dark Age of Macroeconomics</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/04/a-history-lesson-for-alan-meltzer/">A History Lesson for Allan Meltzer</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/19/americas-chinese-disease-not-quite-what-you-think/">America’s Chinese Disease</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/15/chinas-water-pistol/">China’s Water Pistol</a></li>

                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/26/core-logic/">Core Logic</a></li>
             

<li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/05/09/currency-wars-and-the-impossible-trinity-wonkish/">Currency Wars and the Impossible Trinity</a></li>

                            <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/is-lmentary/">IS-LMentary</a></li>


                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/31/japan-1998/">Japan 1998</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/02/liquidity-preference-loanable-funds-and-niall-ferguson-wonkish/">Liquidity Preference, Loanable Funds, and Niall Ferguson</a></li>
                                        
</ul>
</div>
</div><!-- end subColA -->


<div class="subColB">
<div class="entry">
<ul class="refer">

 <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/11/15/macro-policy-in-a-liquidity-trap-wonkish/">Macro Policy In a Liquidity Trap</a></li>
<li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/10/29/more-on-friedmanjapan/">More on Friedman and Japan</a></li>

                                         <li><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/opinion/02krugman.html?ref=paulkrugman">Myths of Austerity</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/12/29/optimal-fiscal-policy-in-a-liquidity-trap-ultra-wonkish/">Optimal Fiscal Policy In a Liquidity Trap</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/reposted-sam-janet-and-debt/">Sam, Janet, and Fiscal Policy</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/07/self-defeating-austerity/">Self-Defeating Austerity</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/the-doctrine-of-immaculate-transfer/">The Doctrine of Immaculate Transfer</a></li>
                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/the-humbling-of-the-fed-wonkish/">The Humbling of the Fed</a></li>

                                         <li><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/the-instability-of-moderation/">The Instability of Moderation</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
</div><!-- end subColB -->
</div><!-- end Col2 --></div><div class="box module nocontent"><h4>Recent Columns</h4>			<div class="entry">
			<h5><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/28/opinion/krugman-the-big-kludge.html?partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" title="The Big Kludge">The Big Kludge</a></h5>						<h6 class="kicker">By PAUL KRUGMAN</h6>
			<p class="summary">Why isn’t the Obamacare system simpler? Politics, mainly.</p>
			</div>
					<div class="entry">
			<h5><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/25/opinion/krugman-addicted-to-the-apocalypse.html?partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" title="Addicted to the Apocalypse">Addicted to the Apocalypse</a></h5>						<h6 class="kicker">By PAUL KRUGMAN</h6>
			<p class="summary">The sky is falling! The sky is falling. When it comes to all the talk of economic catastrophe, why are these disaster fantasies taken so seriously?</p>
			</div>
					<div class="entry">
			<h5><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/21/opinion/krugman-lousy-medicaid-arguments.html?partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" title="Lousy Medicaid Arguments">Lousy Medicaid Arguments</a></h5>						<h6 class="kicker">By PAUL KRUGMAN</h6>
			<p class="summary">First came the false claims of rate shock, and now we have claims that Medicaid makes you sicker.</p>
			</div>
					<div class="entry">
			<h5><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/18/opinion/krugman-the-damage-done.html?partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" title="The Damage Done">The Damage Done</a></h5>						<h6 class="kicker">By PAUL KRUGMAN</h6>
			<p class="summary">We may have managed to avoid driving off a cliff this week, but we are still on the road to nowhere.</p>
			</div>
					<div class="entry">
			<h5><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/14/opinion/krugman-the-dixiecrat-solution.html?partner=rssnyt&amp;emc=rss" title="The Dixiecrat Solution">The Dixiecrat Solution</a></h5>						<h6 class="kicker">By PAUL KRUGMAN</h6>
			<p class="summary">Can we end the crisis in governance with a new alliance in Congress?</p>
			</div>
		</div>	<!-- Blog Archive -->
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	<option value="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2005/09/"> September 2005 </option>
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		<!-- Recent Posts -->
	<div id="recent-posts" class="box module nocontent">
	<h4>Recent Posts</h4>    	<div class="entry">
    	<p class="date">October 30<br>
    				<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon commentCountNumberOnly commentCountNoPrompt" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/borscht-belt-republicans/#postComment">24</a></span>
			    	</p>
    	<h5><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/borscht-belt-republicans/" title="Read: Borscht Belt Republicans">Borscht Belt Republicans</a></h5>
    	<p class="summary">
    	But the joke may be on us.</p>
    	</div>
	        	<div class="entry">
    	<p class="date">October 30<br>
    				<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon commentCountNumberOnly commentCountNoPrompt" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/award-winning-paragraphs/#postComment">102</a></span>
			    	</p>
    	<h5><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/award-winning-paragraphs/" title="Read: Award-winning Paragraphs">Award-winning Paragraphs</a></h5>
    	<p class="summary">
    	The worst of the week.</p>
    	</div>
	        	<div class="entry">
    	<p class="date">October 30<br>
    				<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon commentCountNumberOnly commentCountNoPrompt" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/rentiers-entitlement-and-monetary-policy/#postComment">69</a></span>
			    	</p>
    	<h5><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/rentiers-entitlement-and-monetary-policy/" title="Read: Rentiers, Entitlement, and Monetary Policy">Rentiers, Entitlement, and Monetary Policy</a></h5>
    	<p class="summary">
    	Why the tight-money agitation?</p>
    	</div>
	        	<div class="entry">
    	<p class="date">October 29<br>
    				<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon commentCountNumberOnly commentCountNoPrompt" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/valium-for-obamacare-worriers/#postComment">131</a></span>
			    	</p>
    	<h5><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/valium-for-obamacare-worriers/" title="Read: Valium for Obamacare Worriers">Valium for Obamacare Worriers</a></h5>
    	<p class="summary">
    	A fairly robust program.</p>
    	</div>
	        	<div class="entry">
    	<p class="date">October 29<br>
    				<span class="postMetaHeaderCommentCount commentCount"><a class="commentCountLink icon commentIcon commentCountNumberOnly commentCountNoPrompt" href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/french-interest-rates-in-the-1920s/#postComment">9</a></span>
			    	</p>
    	<h5><a href="http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/29/french-interest-rates-in-the-1920s/" title="Read: French Interest Rates in the 1920s">French Interest Rates in the 1920s</a></h5>
    	<p class="summary">
    	It’s complicated.</p>
    	</div>
	    </div><!-- end Recent Posts side tool -->
	
	<div class="box module nocontent">
	<!-- From the opinion blogs -->
	<h4>From the Opinion Blogs</h4>				<div class="entry">
				<img class="w50 left" src="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs_v3/takingnote/takingnote75.gif" alt="Taking Note | The New York Times">
				<h6 class="kicker">
				<a href="http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com">Taking Note</a>
				</h6>
				<h5>
				<a href="http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/what-it-means-to-ban-the-box/" title="What It Means to ‘Ban the Box’">What It Means to ‘Ban the Box’</a>
				</h5>
				<p class="summary">Ban the box laws do not “require” employers to hire people with criminal convictions. <a href="http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/what-it-means-to-ban-the-box/">Continue reading →</a></p>
				</div>
								<div class="entry">
				<img class="w50 left" src="http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/blogs_v3/opinionator/opinionator75.gif" alt="Opinionator | The New York Times">
				<h6 class="kicker">
				<a href="http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com">Opinionator</a>
				</h6>
				<h5>
				<a href="http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/painting-freedom/" title="Painting Freedom">Painting Freedom</a>
				</h5>
				<p class="summary">The many levels of meaning in Eastman Johnson’s great emancipation work, “The Lord Is My Shepherd.” <a href="http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/30/painting-freedom/">Continue reading →</a></p>
				</div>
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    #265 Cohete Rojo, Oct 31, 2013
  6. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Hey esteban, please explain why everyone was not wealthy prior to Obamacare. haha
     
    #266 glynch, Oct 31, 2013
  7. glynch

    glynch Contributing Member

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    Please explain why everyone did not make a whole lot more prior to Obamacare.

    Normally I would assume such a post is sarcastic, but from your other posts I l assume you actually believe this.
     
    #267 glynch, Oct 31, 2013
  8. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    That's basically what I was talking about regarding they didn't offer a valid alternative. That proposal was a bunch of half measures at best. It keeps some popular features of the ACA while not really addressing how to expand coverage and control costs. As for some of the features not in ACA:

    Buying insurance across state lines violates federalism and may raise Constitutional questions but also given the diversity of the US will present problems regarding coverage and access to in care networks.

    Medical savings accounts only work if you have a lot of money to put into it.

    Many individuals can already deduct medical and insurance costs. That didn't hasn't driven cost down but even prior to ACA medical costs were rising.

    Tort reform has been tried in some states without strong evidence of driving down costs.

    While it claims to be an overhaul it is about as much as an overhaul as if I replaced the fender on my car and said I overhauled it.
     
    #268 rocketsjudoka, Oct 31, 2013
  9. esteban

    esteban Member

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    Very easy comrade, if we don't have this turd baby but real healthcare reform, employers will start hiring again, more people will be employed earning a real wage instead of the crappy part time work.

    Lefties never understand anything simple, you guys always go around telling people how smart you are and what is good for everyone.
     
    #269 esteban, Oct 31, 2013
  10. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Not true

    Very few

    My plan would look something like this:

    1) Make every dollar spent on premium or health care fully tax deductible (unless it was done on pre-tax basis). Right now there is real discrimination in that employers are allowed to set it up to where your premiums are taken out pre-tax but individuals who buy insurance can't do that. They get to deduct ONLY if their premiums/costs exceed a certain amount of in come. Drop that number to 0.

    2) Amend HSA rules to allow for more. I would allow for plans with deductibles of $1000 or higher to be eligible for an HSA benefit.

    3) Use the Medicare supplement policy for guarantee issue/guarantee renewable. I would create a one time GI open enrollment for all Americans (this year would have been fine, same strategy). I'd then have all Americans eligible for an open enrollment with GI/GR on their half-decade birthdates. (25, 30, 35, 40, 45, etc.) Just like Medicare Supp (except you get more) you get 3 month open enrollment (MS is actually 6) from the day you turn X to enroll GI.

    4) Outside of GI open enrollments, insurers are allowed to ask medical questions and use medical underwriting. They are allowed to rate in the following ways:
    -Community rating that is already in the bill
    + UW that factors in the following:
    1) Preferred, Standard, Substandard tiers. with 10% variance between Standard and the two tiers apart from it. (Preferred 10% savings, Substandard 10% more expensive) At open enrollment periods, everyone qualifies for preferred rating.
    2) Male/Female ratio until age 35 for female that allows for an additional 10% on premiums for females under age 35 unless they have had a hysterectomy/other medical condition that prevents child birth. (this is similar to the car insurance penalty on males)
    3) Current smoker rule that's in ACA, 150% of premium for smokers

    Pre-x Limitations
    -Outside of the GI open enrollment periods, plans are allowed to apply a pre-x limitation of 90 days, excluding maternity.

    With all of the above, you still have guarantee issue in the sense that no one can be declined for coverage.

    You could still roll out the exchanges and all that jazz.

    With regards to the subsidy:
    -I would amend the subsidy eligibility to properly account for children. Right now it only considers the afford ability of employer sponsored insurance for an individual, not the dependents. A family that gets offered employer sponsored insurance that is paid for by the employer for the employee should still be able to qualify for a subsidy for their children.

    -Maximum out of pocket
    ACA sets this around $6350 but all copays count towards that number now. This is a major change from prior years and is a big cost driver. I actually like the concept though. I would have set the maximum out of pocket at $8000 though with copays counting.

    -Employer plans
    Nationalize the option that Texas implemented a few years ago. If an employer pays 100% of the cost for his employee only rate, the plan gets a 5% discount off of the rates.

    -Tax credit:
    Improve the tax credit to incentive small employers to pay a portion of the dependent costs for their employees. Dependent costs are a real burden for a lot of people. Perhaps $1 for $1 tax credit for employers who pay dependent costs for their employees up to $100 per dependent.



    With all of the above I feel you would have accomplished the increased access to coverage while implementing an afford ability model that would have worked better than the ACA model. Additionally, you would do a better job of giving people incentive to actually buy the coverage as on top of any penalties they would be getting a better rate if they do it at open enrollment.
     
    #270 justtxyank, Oct 31, 2013
  11. esteban

    esteban Member

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    I like your plan and can you also make a better website than Obamacrash.gov?
     
    #271 esteban, Oct 31, 2013
  12. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Do righties like you always fall for the myths that aren't true, such as employers are using only part time workers because of ACA?
     
    #272 FranchiseBlade, Oct 31, 2013
  13. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Contributing Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #273 bigtexxx, Oct 31, 2013
  14. geeimsobored

    geeimsobored Contributing Member

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    You just said that you couldn't "imagine" Bush doing something like this and then I pointed out an example where the Bush administration did something far worse.

    The fact is that you and others have chosen to live in this fantasy world where big bad Obama is running roughshod over the poor Republican minority when anyone on this planet knows that not only have Democrats have been a far more cooperative party when in the minority but Republicans have been a far more objectionable majority under your standards.
     
    #274 geeimsobored, Oct 31, 2013
  15. Dubious

    Dubious Contributing Member

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    I probably will sign up under Obamacare, but what's the rush? I plan on letting them hash it out for 30 days before I even click the site.
     
    #275 Dubious, Oct 31, 2013
  16. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    If you are not under 400% of poverty level there is no reason for you to through the site.
     
    #276 justtxyank, Oct 31, 2013
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    How do you expect lower income or even many moderate income people to enough to make medical savings accounts practical? We have a problem with savings in this country to begin with. This is why there are so many problems regarding people being able to afford paying for medical bills and while the previous system was headed for a crisis.

    Now I am not against medical savings accounts in principle but I don't see them as being a good solution to the issue.

    I know several people who do including myself but as I am also a business owner and many people I know are too that may be why. I will defer to you on that.
    I will have to think more about your proposals to have a solid opinion on them and will admit to not having that big of an insurance background to completely comment on them. ON the surface they seem like good ideas but some of them seem similar to ideas in the ACA. A couple of quick thoughts though are that it looks like you are calling for an expansion in supplemental Medicare supplement and am curious how you would propose paying for that. I don't see a mandate in your plan so while you make insurance more attractive I am not sure how well that will work in getting younger healthier people to enroll.
     
    #277 rocketsjudoka, Oct 31, 2013
  18. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    I always wait with any new rollout. Whether it is software or a device it always seems like the second release is better than the first.
     
    #278 rocketsjudoka, Oct 31, 2013
  19. justtxyank

    justtxyank Contributing Member

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    Fair point. HSAs are not practical for people who won't save money.

    Most people don't own their own business. :) For those who DON'T own their own business, they can't deduct medical costs unless it exceeds something like 10% of their income.


    Sorry, you misunderstood me on a few points.

    1) I'm not calling for the repeal of ACA or saying my model INSTEAD of ACA. I'm saying modify ACA with the suggestions I've offered.

    2) I'm all for the individual mandate/tax penalty.

    3) Not expanding Medicare Supplements, using the model that works for them and porting it into the way ACA functions on the private insurance model.

    Example: Current ACA calls for open enrollments every year, but the open enrollment is only with regards to getting the subsidy. It has nothing to do with medical underwriting. In Medicare Supp you get an open enrollment where you can qualify for a plan with no underwriting.

    I'm suggesting we should have used that model.
     
    #279 justtxyank, Oct 31, 2013
  20. MoonDogg

    MoonDogg Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #280 MoonDogg, Oct 31, 2013
    1 person likes this.
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