Because like I said I'm about to get out. I'm currently waiting my findings from the Med board and then checking out
I have been paying taxes personally, part of which went into reparation payments for the Holocaust. http://www.dw.de/dw/article/0,,2968661,00.html Not that any reparation payment will ever bring lost loved ones back, but it's the least we can do. Germans still remember the Holocaust and hold vigils to make sure it doesn't happen again. Every kid gets taught at school about this terrible part of our history (even though some idiots don't get the message). It's funny that you make your typical deflection post on the exact day that a memorial service was held in Berlin for the victims of the killing spree by three Neo-Nazis who killed 9 immigrants and a German police officer over several years (how many people have been killed by Islamists in the world in the last few days?) All the heads of the German state were present, the memorial service was attended by more than 1,000 officials in the heart of Berlin and members of the victims' families were given an opportunity to speak their mind. So much for your preposterous claim that it is not possible to share responsibility for something you have not done personally. All you do is deflect, lie, deflect, lie. This is how Germany remembered the victims of crimes committed by three individuals (as it seems right now). I certainly did not participate in these crimes, and neither did our heads of state, but I very much welcome the gesture by our heads of state. Germany asks neo-Nazi victims' families for forgiveness (Reuters) - German Chancellor Angela Merkel apologised to the relatives of victims of a neo-Nazi killing spree on Thursday, asking for their forgiveness for botched investigations that left their murderers undetected for more than a decade. Merkel addressed the families of the victims - eight Turks, a Greek and a German policewoman - at a memorial service, calling the crimes a disgrace and an attack on German democracy. "The background to these murders lay hidden for far too long. That is the bitter truth ... These years must have been a never-ending nightmare for you," Merkel said at the commemoration in Berlin's grand Konzerthaus. "For this I beg you for forgiveness." Few in Germany had thought a far-right group could lie behind the murders that took place between 2000 and 2007. Investigators had instead looked for mafia or drug-dealing links, and even investigated victims' relatives, Merkel said. Revelations last November that an extremist right-wing cell lay behind the shootings stunned Germany and provoked deep soul-searching over how the group, calling itself the Nationalist Socialist Underground, went undetected for so long. The existence of the cell came to light by chance after two members committed suicide following a botched bank robbery, and a female accomplice torched an apartment used by the gang. Police found guns, neo-Nazi paraphernalia and a grotesque film showing the victims' bodies, alongside cartoon montages of the Pink Panther pointing out the locations of the crimes: "Germany Tour - Nine Turks shot" read one cartoon placard. Germany's Nazi past makes right-wing militancy a particularly sensitive subject in the country. Experts have long warned of extremism among disenchanted young people in eastern regions of the country where unemployment is high and job prospects poor. Most of the victims had run small businesses or fast-food stands in cities across Germany. "My son died in my arms, in 2006, in the internet cafe where he was shot," Ismail Yozgat said of his 21-year-old son Halit. Addressing the gathering in Turkish, he asked that the street in Kassel where his son was born and murdered be named after him. Semiya Simsek, whose father Enver Simsek was shot at his flower stand in Nuernberg at the age of 38, said for years her family could not consider themselves victims because of suspicions that her father may have had criminal connections. NEO-NAZI THREAT "Can you imagine how it felt to see my mother become a focus of investigation?" she said, in a speech which left dignitaries visibly moved. "Today I torture myself with the question am I at home in Germany? ... How can I be sure of this when there are people who don't want me here because my parents are from another country?" At least 3 million people of Turkish origin live in Germany. Many came to fill West Germany's labour shortages after World War Two and helped deliver its "economic miracle". Earlier on Thursday Aiman Mazyek, the head of Germany's Central Muslim Council, said racist attacks were on the rise and prejudice was becoming endemic. "We cannot go back to 'business as usual', this is a watershed. In the past we have dismissed racism as a fringe problem or a neo-Nazi affair, but racism is eating its way into the centre of society," he told Deutschlandfunk radio. Many offices around Germany joined Thursday's commemoration by holding a one-minute silence in memory of the victims. Since last November police have reopened all unsolved cases with a possible racist motive since 1998 amid fears that security services underplayed the threat from the extreme right for years, and may have been distracted by its use of unreliable informants from the right-wing scene. The murder spree also fuelled calls for a renewed effort to ban the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD). A previous attempt to ban the NPD in 2003 collapsed because informants were used as witnesses. Many politicians are wary of trying again, not least because of the fear of pushing NPD supporters underground. http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/02/23/germany-neonazis-idINDEE81M0E220120223 Great, then you already have an excuse again, so you can keep deflecting.
There are plenty of people around the Muslim world who have not lived in a war their entire lives, and they still displayed the same intolerant, outraged behavior when the Danish cartoons came out (and in many other instances). Your constant fingerpointing and blaming the USA having troops in Afghanistan is not a valid argument in many other countries. Unless you are saying it is natural that other Muslims around the world will solidarize with the ones in Afghanistan. But then I want to know: Mathloom (and others) say there is no shared responsibility. But there is shared outrage? Interesting. The sharing only goes one way, I see. Deflect responsibility, but take any opportunity to share outrage.
That doesn't excuse murder or violence. But to act like it doesn't play a part in why they do it is stupid. You and Donny can pretend it's only about the religion, but you're ignoring reality. A foreign nation is occupying their country, and rightly or wrongly many there believe that part of the reason is a general war on Islam from the U.S. They aren't happy about being occupied, and then all of a sudden one of things that they see as part of their general way of life and they hold sacred is being burned by the occupier. It is as much if not more about an occupier coming in to their nation and trying to destroy their way of life. Obviously religion is related because that's part of their way of life that's being destroyed. But to ignore the other key component is ridiculous. If Iran did invade the U.S. and started burning Rockets Championship banners, videos, banned Clutchfans, and made it illegal to wear Rockets gear or watch Rockets games, people would see it as an occupying nation interfering with our way of life.
FFS, have you not been reading the thread? (or any of the dozens of other threads on similar topics over the years?) I can't speak for ATW, but I have never said or even intimated this, EVER. I openly and readily acknowledge the various factors that increase and decrease the likelihood and severity of these occurances.
Why are we still in Afghanistan. Why did we ever go there? All these American presidents went to Harvard and Yale yet they seemed to have either failed or not taken history. The life of the people in Afghanistan sucks. They have nothing to lose. They are probably just looking for any reason to just run around and do stupid stuff. Kind of like the LA riots in the 90s. No job no hope for the future probably not good for the psyche.
Are you reading-impaired? Just a quote from this thread, there are obviously many others in which I said the same:
The argument is between necessary and sufficient. ATW and I feel that the religion is a necessary component of this violence. Everyone else seems to feel that it is not, but it is sufficient in lieu of some other motivator. This line of reasoning falls flat on its face when you consider that: 1) The perpetrators themselves claim religious motive (this should end the argument right there, but alas, people insist on speaking for them). 2) Similar instances of violence (with the exact same cause, i.e. someone burning a book) have occurred in the past in different countries and cultures (most of which with much higher standards of living than Afghanistan). So, this is not a freak occurrence or a "one-off". It's a pattern. ATW and I believe that the socio-economic and cultural factors play a part in the frequency/likelihood and severity of these occurances, but we both know that without the religious directive/impetus, the violence cannot be triggered by something like blasphemy. Consider the religious directive to be the fuel (gasoline), freedom of expression (or whatever incident it happens to be) to be the ignition source (spark), and socio-economic factors to be the building these things are contained in. Now, without the gasoline, there's probably no fire. However, if there is a fire, it's gonna be a hell of a lot worse if the building is made out of rickety crumbling wood and straw and not steel, brick, and other fire r****dant material. Can there be a fire without the gasoline? If the igniting source is large enough and the building is flammable enough, sure. But in such a case, it wouldn't be considered a "gasoline fire". (Sidenote: not all "gasolines" are as flammable as each other, didn't meant to imply that... octane levels change ) Make sense now?
Lets assume the Afghans are all atheists, but had experienced 40 years of war and rather than Quran burnings excess Afghani flags were burned. The reaction would have been the same, its a matter of poking a cornered animal. If you take away peace, opportunity, and freedom, you shouldn't expect a civilized society.
All that serves to do is suggest/show that their religion is tied up in their nationalism. It doesn't speak to, or take away from, the additional volatility that religion (particularly this one) brings to the table. I don't think I can explain it any better or more plainly than my last post above. Read it, and if you don't understand where I'm coming from, then I'm afraid we're at an impasse and we'll have to agree to disagree.
