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Deficit reduction panel releases debt proposal plan

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Phillyrocket, Nov 10, 2010.

  1. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Liberals: Obama Doesn't Compromise, He Caves

    And on cue, Obama caves:

    Republican sees possibility of consensus on taxes

    More at both links.
     
  2. Rocketman95

    Rocketman95 Hangout Boy

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    that's ****ing disgusting.
     
  3. Major

    Major Member

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    This is probably the best summary I've read on this subject. Dems screwed up by not forcing a vote before the elections.

    http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2010/12/why_the_gop_is_like_bear_bryant.php#more?ref=fpblg


    David Leonhardt offers this assessment of the political perils supposedly facing Democrats on the Bush tax cuts:

    ---
    If Democrats cannot come up with a plan that can win 60 votes in the Senate, which means at least two Republican votes, Republicans can filibuster any bill. All of the tax cuts would then expire on Dec. 31. When the new Republican House majority arrives in January, it will be able to make its first order of business a retroactive tax cut -- forcing President Obama and Senate Democrats to choose between a purely Republican plan and an across-the-board tax increase. ...

    Much of the recent commentary about the tax cuts has skipped over this political reality. It's instead focused on how tough the Democrats should be and whether they should insist on the expiration of all the Bush tax cuts on income above $250,000 a year. But that's no longer one of their options. Unless they believe they will benefit more than Republicans from a standoff in which taxes go up, which is hard to believe with a Democrat in the White House, their only choice now is among various versions of retreat.
    ---

    This has an internal logic to it, but it rests on a series of premises that I would argue still go back to the core issue of the Democrats not being tough enough -- and I don't mean tough in simply a hardheaded, muscular way but in a savvy, persistent, opportunistic sense.

    Let me put it this way: If the roles we're reversed and Democrats were on the opposite side of the issue, wouldn't the analysis be that Democrats were running a huge political risk by blocking middle class tax cuts and getting blamed for raising everyone's taxes? Admit it. You know that would be the analysis.

    It reminds me of the line attributed to the old football coach Bum Phillips, speaking about the legendary Alabama coach Paul "Bear" Bryant: "He can take his'n and beat your'n and take your'n and beat his'n." Translated: He could beat you with his players then turn around and beat you with your players.

    Leonhardt's analysis is not really about the macropolitical choices for Democrats. It's about his perception, probably the right one, that Democrats won't be able to beat the Republicans at this game. It's not the game isn't winnable. It's that the Democrats aren't good enough to win it. All the proof you need of that is that the game would look very winnable if you swapped the teams.
     
  4. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Absolutely. I have no idea why they did that. It's so ridiculous it almost seems like sabotage.
     
  5. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    Democrats are such p*****s. No wonder voters think they can't protect the country.
     
  6. Depressio

    Depressio Member

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  7. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    The more I read about it, the more the deficit reduction panels' recommendations seem absolutely grotesque - hammering the poor and the middle class while rewarding the rich and the corporate. Of course, this is the very definition of the American "capitalist" methodology.

    Anyhow, here is a sampling:

    1) It Would Cut Social Security Benefits For Current And Future Retirees


    2) It Would Cut Tax Rates For The Rich


    ^^^WHAT THE HECK IS THIS ****?



    3) It Would Screw The Middle Class


    4) It Uses ‘Caps’ To Disguise Major Cuts To Medicare (And Elsewhere)

    5) It Makes A Start On Cutting Defense

    6) It’s Just What The Housing Market Needs

    7) It Would Declare War On Federal Workers

    8) It Would Hurt Veterans And Servicemembers
    9) It Would Kill An Incredibly Effective Anti-Poverty Tool

    10) There Are A Lot Of Things Missing

     
    1 person likes this.
  8. FranchiseBlade

    Supporting Member

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    Great analysis. It won't let me rep you again, or I would have.

    There are some good things in the recommendations, but there is a lot wrong with the approach.

    I wouldn't mind doing means testing for social security, or things like that. BEcause of something I saw(I can't remember where) I do have a problem with raising the age. Because while lawyers and the like are living 12 years more, sanitation workers are only living one year longer.

    So it's like saying because lawyers live longer garbage workers can't get social security until they are older.
     
  9. Major

    Major Member

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    I haven't read all the report in detail, but these two are highly misleading. These two things are supported in concept by economists on both sides of the aisle. The idea is to reduce the rates (both individual and corporate) while broadening the base of income that is taxed - taking out a lot of the exemptions. The exemptions benefit the rich the most, so this doesn't actually screw the middle/lower classes while lowering what the rich pay. And it provides for a larger basic exemption for all the millions of middle/lower class people that don't itemize right now.

    There are lots of winners and losers, but it's not aligned by rich vs. poor. Domestic corporations benefit at the expense of international ones. Renters benefit, while wealthy home owners pay more, etc.

    In my opinion, this is one of the absolute BEST parts of the proposal and one of the ones that probably gets the most bipartisan support from analysts.
     
  10. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    I find it hard to believe that the mortgage exemption benefits the rich more than the middle class.

    This might change things, assuming "larger" means "significant".

    I am still completely opposed to further tax breaks for the rich.
     
  11. Major

    Major Member

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    Because of standard deductions, it does. The standard deduction for a married couple is something like $11,000. You have to have more than that in all your deductions to benefit at all. So if you have $10,000 in interest - that's about a $200,000 outstanding mortgage - you don't benefit at all unless you have plenty of other deductions. And even then, you only benefit by the amount that you are over the $11k you already got. Combine all of that with raising the $11k standard deduction to something higher and you'd really have to be paying a lot of interest to make it worth it.

    The ones who benefit the most are the people with million dollar homes who go well above the standard deduction amounts - not only do they get the biggest deduction, but it comes off of a larger tax bracket. If a person making $50,000 and someone making $2 million have an equal amount of interest, the one that makes $50,000 only saves maybe 20% while the person making $2 million saves 35%. So we're actually subsidizing the same mortgage MORE for rich people than middle class people.

    Besides all that, I believe the final plan actually only took away the deduction on homes over $500,000 anyway - though I'm not positive about that.

    This is idea isn't a tax break for the rich. The idea is that the rich get so many deductions right now that they don't pay as much. If you get rid of the deductions but make them pay it on all their income, you'll raise more money.
     
  12. thadeus

    thadeus Member

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    After 3 good decades of socializing the costs of doing business while privatizing the profits, I feel wholly justified in saying "**** the rich."

    The system has been too strongly slanted in their favor for far too long - and look where that's got us.

    The best economic policies for reducing the deficit should follow the great "**** the rich" plan.
     
  13. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Good points, particularly about the standard deduction. However, I think you left out one facet worth investigation:

    The person making 50k is far more concerned with saving on taxes than the person making 2MM. Even though the effect may be more pronounced percentage-wise for the rich, the actual impact of that tax break is far more beneficial for the middle-class income bracket. Put another way, while it may make great sense from the standpoint of government tax returns, it still leaves the middle-class family more squeezed than the rich. (Subjective terminology, I know - let's ignore that for the time being, we're talking generically)

    So, yes - I see your point and it is very clearly demonstrated in this article, but let me quote a key passage to further my (minor) counterpoint:

    I should note that I think the "small impact" statement would apply to the top 5 or even 10 percent, not just the top 1%. I think the statement above is far too lenient.

    Why not keep their tax rates at 35% and get rid of the deductions? This is essentially Krugman's argument above - if we're trying to lower the deficit it sure seems like we're making it harder than we have to.
     
  14. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    looks like you've been a good sheep and taken the liberals' class warfare line
     
  15. Pushkin

    Pushkin Member

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    The plan is obviously far from perfect, but it is a good starting point. Unfortunately, it will also probably be the end. I just do not see a good result for our kids if we do not accept some changes to our current situation.

    In order to straighten out our mess of a growing deficit everyone will have to suffer. There will have to be deep and painful spending cuts. There will also need to be tax increases. The leaders of this panel decided to use disguised tax increases (like Reagan used) by lowering the tax rate, but increasing the tax base through reduced or eliminated deductions.

    I do not see the problem with the increase in the age for full retirement benefits under social security. It is being fazed in over a very long time, which will allow modification if needed. Additionally, I believe the plan has proposals that make it easier on manual laborers (to obtain payment at a younger age) if they can no longer work. I believe the original retirement age in in the 1930s was 65. I would be surprised if the statistics show that the life expectancy of manual laborers has not increased by at least 4 years since the 1930s.

    I think the one thing that shows this plan is a good starting point is that both the far left and the far right hate the plan.
     
  16. glynch

    glynch Member

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    #116 glynch, Dec 3, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Excuse me, but the rich have been waging successful class warfare for millennia.
     
  18. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    Gratuitous and stupid cave nearly complete. Obama dooms himself further.

    More at the link.

    [​IMG]
     
    #118 rhadamanthus, Dec 6, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010

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