Where Does Nash Rank Among The Greatest PGs Of All Time?

It simply is. I mean do you watch basketball? A great defensive PG does not make much of a difference. Jameer Nelson is not a great defensive PG neither was Rafaer Alston yet the Magic led the NBA in defensive efficiency. PG defensive weaknesses can be overlooked IMO.

And about the clutchness... Have you watched Phoenix Suns games? I really don't think you have. Nash kept them in games and hit clutch 3 after clutch 3 to save/win games. His teams were often overmatched and yet he made sure they won

 

How do you know a great defensive point guard does not make much of a difference? Are you implying that Dennis Johnson did not make much of a difference for the Boston Celtics? Are you implying that Walt Frazier did not have an impact for the New York Knicks? What about Derek Harper for the New York Knicks? Ron Harper for the Chicago Bulls? Chauncey Billups for the Detroit Pistons? All of these point guards have one thing in common: they were the starting point guards for championship teams, or NBA Finals teams.

Oh, I've watched plenty of Phoenix Suns games over the past 10 years. The question is: have you watched any point guards pre-2000? I've been watching basketball since 1974, not as much in the 70s, but I've watched plenty of basketball in the 80s, 90s, and 00s. I never said Nash did not have his moments of "clutchness"- but the bottom line is that clutch play in the playoffs DOES matter and Nash, although helping his team win playoff series, has not led any team to an NBA Finals appearance nor to a championship.

Any of you that feel that Steve Nash is a top 5 all-time point guard, power to you.

 

Actually, it's not. First, the MVPs (not MVP's) are certainly a criteria, as I mentioned, what, 6 times already. I think going up against Jordan, Magic and Bird for the MVP is a little tougher than what Nash did, but that's fine- 2 MVPs puts you up in an elite category, and definitely puts Nash in the top 10 for point guards.

Second, a one-season turnaround, no matter how great, is a very weak example to prove all-time greatness. If that were the case, they why don't we anoint the Seattle Mariners that won 114 games as one of the greatest teams of all time? Right, because one season is a very small part of an entire career, especially one that didn't even lead to a championship. Third, I'm not even arguing the "green light" thing- his coach in Dallas was DON NELSON, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE!!!! HOW MUCH MORE OF A GREEN LIGHT COACH CAN YOU GET THAN THAT?????

But, you know, keep believing that your argument is more valid. Matter of fact, take it to any sports message board- ESPN, Sporting News, etc.- and I'm sure you'll convince them, too.

 

And then look at the subsequent season when the Suns lost Amare. What happened then? What's happened every season since he's rejoined the Suns?

What do Boris Diaw, Raja Bell, Leandro Barbosa, and Channing Frye have in common?

 

You guys are dropping the ball on Cousy. He essentially invented the modern PG position, won more championships than any PG, and was a proto-Maravich with his passing.

Magic, Stockton, Oscar and Isaiah round out the Top Five. (Zeke was an amazing player, definitely clutch, and in his prime could take over a game at will. Those underplaying his game are either letting biases against Detroit or his GMing get the better of them or are just flat out ignorant about the history of the game.

My next 5 are Walt, Tiny, Payton, Kidd, and Lenny Wilkins (another PG that never gets any love... Top 50, 9 time All-Star.)

At Number 11 I have Maurice Cheeks. People forget how good he was and he tends to get overshadowed by Dr. J and the Bird Celtics, but the guy was a tough PG. It is a travesty that he is not in the Hall.

I'll put Nash at 12 just because Penny got injured. Nash is the system, I agree. But the system has to take you somewhere if you're going to be rewarded for it. (You could say Iverson was the system for the 76ers and he at least got them to the Finals.)

Good to see Price getting some attention... he went to my HS for one year and I'll put him at 13. If you'll recall, he and KJ were on the Cavs at the same time and KJ could never beat him out, so he was traded to PHX for Larry Nance.

14 is Earl Monroe and 15 is KJ and 16 is Mark Jackson.

The two big questions for all-time PGs are Maravich and Iverson. I don't think they quite qualify, though some may be tempted to put Iverson on a list.

As for Nash, he's certainly one of the top 2 over 30 PGs of all time.

 

Some Cousy...

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People tends to forget, playoff is about match up. And one big defensive hole can be exploited to death.

I remember in Suns' best days, they had pretty record against Nets. Because Nets had Kidd/Carter/Jefferson at 1/2/3, and Nash had to take on Kidd. Suns had to use Marion and Bell on Parker, that didn't work well at all.

Also in playoff, the opposition can slow down the tempo, force feed inside to reduce long rebound and fastbreak. Once not in familiar tempo and played tighten D in half court, shooters get cold. That's the reason Suns failed more than anything else.

You don't win championship with fast break. And Nash lives on fastbreak. See the problem here?

 

I respect your willingness to see the other side. Thomas might be preferable to Nash for some teams. Depends on the components you already have, as chemistry is key. Let me end with this. I believe that Joe Dumars is the only player in league history who got into MJ's head.

 

As I mentioned, it's really not fair to Nash to compare because, who knows, maybe Phoenix pulls off a championship in the next few years, or at least goes to the Finals. Maybe Nash surpasses all of Thomas' individual records. I really think the debate should be active greatest... and non-active greatest... active greatest are at a disadvantage

 

1.....

:grin:

 

Just outside the top 10 is about right!

Replace any of the top 10 pgs and the Suns win tonight.

 

I struggle to see how people think that the other PG's named in alot of this list can even come close to Nash's true shooting %.


The bloke is flat out one of the best shooters in the league for a VERY consistent period of time.

lets not mention his assist numbers.


Its ridiculous to think that you think the system is the creation of his numbers. Noone can shoot that well unless they are actually good at shooting. The guy is a triple threat pure and simple and the numbers speak for it themselves.

 

Even Magic Johnson had his share of crappy playoff games. You can't say with any certainty that substituting one player for another would guarantee a win.

 

What did I say? Playoff is all about matchup, a defense liability will be exploited to death.

 

I know for a fact if you replaced Nash with Magic Johnson the Suns would of won tonight.....FOR FACT!!

 

Wow, really guys? Did you even watch the game?

Nash was covering Rudy Fernandez the majority of the time, and you can check out how he did. Miller had an amazing game, and it was Richardson who covered him during the game. Bayless scored most of his points against Dragic. Without Nash, Suns would not have a chance.

 

"Would have" (which is called "contra factual") and "fact" referring to the same thing is a logical contradiction.

BTW, it is "would have" not "would of." I really don't like being a grammar police.

 

Very funny. The question is DID YOU watch the game? Rudy Fernandez DID NOT even play in the 4th quarter at all. And when he was in the game it wasn't Nash's defense that stopped Rudy... his shot was plain off.

Miller and Bayless did work in the 4th. They combined for 25 points in the 4th quarter and seized control of the game while Nash couldn't stop either one.

 

How could you forget about Pistol Pete? the greatest point guard ever!