After the Lewinski thing when they had opportunity to Call Clinton a Liar They still never did those types of atmospheres none that I can recall Rocket River
We agree. I don't think I, as a white guy, ever get called a racist on Clutchfans. I don't race bait, I don't fight for the dixie flag, I don't attack Strom's daughter, don't join racist organizations... (Well, maybe the American Physical Society, full of white dorks.) Seriously, see what I mean?
one thing we know no one racist or not has ever done that in the history of the US eventhough more absolute/blatant lies have been said until now when we have a black President who didn't lie anyway
It has become my opinion that there is a whole lot of race-bating going on that I think falls below the radar for a whole bunch of mainstream, legitimately not racist Republicans. The example below is a pretty good example from Jeffery Goldberg's blog at The Atlantic. If I was a black man, or a secret Klan sympathizer, I imagine that I would see this for what it is right off the bat. But as a plain, middle American (hopefully race blind) white guy, I have to admit I can see something like this and its implications kind of float below consciousness. In Goldberg's notes, he says "The answer, unfortunately, is fairly obvious", but I don't think it is. Especially if I were just browsing news sites (not that I would browse Drudge on purpose) I might see this and not even discern the subtle message. It is sort of a secret code language that only resonates with the people who want to understand it (and the people that are are targeted). When a large chunk of mainstream Republicans claim that there isn't any racism behind their protests, I think they believe it. But they believe not because it isn't there, but rather because it is hidden under the thinnest façade of innuendo, which is just thick enough to hide it from eyes that aren’t tuned to resonate at that frequency. I think if these people actually take a look at the protests honestly and with an eye for racial messages, they might see things differently. [rquoter] Race-Baiting at the Drudge Report See below. Is this national news? Is this even local news? Beatings are terrible, and the students who did this should be punished, but you have to ask yourself why Drudge would feature this inconsequential story on his homepage. The answer, unfortunately, is fairly obvious -- the message is that white people ought to be very afraid of black people, starting with the President. <IMG SRC="http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/Picture%204.png" HEIGHT="600" WIDTH="600"> [/rquoter]
You are right. I think that started us down the road to extreme partisanship that we have now. Yet even in those times, we didn't see anything like what Wilson did.
I don't know. As I said Wilson might be a racists but I have a hard time jumping automatically to that conclusion. I knew very little about him prior to last week and I suspect most people didn't either. Just because he got heated and called a Black President a liar during a joint address of Congress nothing about that immediately brands him as a racist. Is it possible that someone could strongly disagree with Obama's policies and it not be racially motivated? That said I'm not surprised finding out that he was a member of the Sons of Confederacy but at the same time Byrd was a Klansman so it is possible for people to reform. Simply put I think an immediate presumption of racism without knowing more is unwarranted.
I don't recall anyone on the floor of the House calling President Clinton a liar but certainly many prominent Repub. politicians publically accused Clinton of all sorts of things including murdering Vince Foster and Ron Brown and also being a rapist.
Please. The guy was an aide to Strom, he accused Strom's black daughter of smearing Strom's name, he was one of only 7 members of the SC Senate to vote in favor of keeping the Confederate Flag flying over the SC Capital building, and he once said, "The Southern heritage, the Confederate heritage is very honorable." That's a lot of circumstantial evidence building up and it is all pointing one way. He may not be Bull Connor, but most people can see what he is.
How long ago was this information common knowledge? As I said I knew very little about Rep. Wilson until this week and I doubt most people did. My point was that without knowing I didn't think it could automatically be presumed he was a racist. Knowing more yes I am inclined to believe he is a racist but at the sametime that doesn't mean that his outburst was racially motivated or that his behavior would be different if Obama had been white.
No, you can't presume, but you can hypothesize and do research to confirm your hypothesis. First, you notice that this is the first time someone has publicly called a President a liar to his face ("You lie", directly to him) while he was addressing Congress. Other cases include booing (which happened, too), but I couldn't find a documented cause of such a direct attack in public. Then, you think: why would this happen just now? Is this the most heated issue in the history of Congress? No, probably not... So what would drive someone to insult the President's integrity in public like that, something that's rather unprecedented? One possible answer is race. So, you investigate that. Lo and behold, he's a member of the Sons of Confederacy, voted for the Confederate flag to remain, and smeared Strom's illegitimate child as if she was ruining Strom's reputation (how would having a child ruin someone's reputation?). The evidence begins to pile up supporting your idea.
it's human nature to at least let someone finish before interrupting him/her this the President of the US in the middle of an important speech to congress and being witnessed by the public, then from out of nowhere Wilson shouted out "You Lie" which is a lie in itself just like Kanye interrupting Taylor Swift, he did it because he thought he can.. Kanye saw Taylor as young girl and he knew he can get a way with it.. he knew he was above her in status Wilson yelled out "You Liar" in the middle of POTUS's speech because he saw a "boy" in Obama.. Wilson felt like he was above Obama in status
Of course it's possible for people to disagree and not be racist. IT's even possible for them to call Obama a liar and not be racist. I do find it doubtful that a congressperson would drop the rules of respect so low as to call Obama a liar mid speech in a disruptive outburst unless race played some roll. Like I said, there is no real way to prove it, so people can disagree.
But you see? That's the cover. "There's no real way to prove it." In polite society we would never admit to agreeing to taboo subjects. Hence 88% of republicans disavowingrace in the healthcare debate. Oh we can dance around and use code words to annul ourselves of actually admitting to what we truly believe. And now people are whining because they’re getting called on it? I say more of it!
There's a wealth of behavioral study of mammals to support this very simple idea. Even if it's not a conscious decision, you don't act out unless you think you are in a hierarchical position to get away with it. Agree with FB, we'll never know this (idiot's) heart of hearts, but if we just go by someone's actions and words, he's an asshat who probably has big problems with dark skin. I agree with those like ROXRAN saying we've got better things to worry about than Jethro Wilson. Why I think some public statement from the House is worthwhile is it just sends a message about respecting the office of the presidency, as our chief executive, no matter how much you disagree with him (or someday, her.)
It's pretty sad to see people rally behind him. It's okay to admit "your side" committed something patently wrong and then go back to the debate at hand.
Joe Wilson won't apologize...probably won't get re-elected either. WILSON OPPONENT TOPS $1.5M Posted: Monday, September 14, 2009 4:58 PM by Domenico Montanaro Filed Under: Congress, 2010 From NBC's Savannah Guthrie Rep. Joe Wilson's (R-SC) opponent in SC-2 has raised more than $1.5 million, according to the DCCC. "Since Republican Congressman Joe Wilson's outburst on the House floor his Democratic opponent, former Marine Rob Miller, has received over 40,000 individual grassroots contributions raising more than $1.5 million," Jessica Santillo, Southern regional press secretary for the DCCC, wrote in an e-mail. A Republican source says Wilson has raised more than $1 million. *** UPDATE *** Wilson's tally is apparently up to $1.5 million. http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/09/14/2068663.aspx
I find that somewhat specious reasoning. While racism could be the motivating factor there could be a lot of things. Prior Bill Clinton no President had been investigated for sexual dalliances, let alone impeached, even though many Presidents had been known to carry on affairs. Even the rather weak obstruction of justice charge other Presidents had done things worse yet not been impeached. I mean was it race that kept Congress from calling Clinton a liar to his face while they felt free to accuse him of rape and murder publically while trying to remove him from office? While yes what Wilson did was unprecedented but it isn't like Congressmen haven't directed vitriol towards the president.
But in general, the race has been the same so racism was never a valid option for investigation. Now, while it's probably silly in 95% of the cases, it is one possible explanation.
At the sametime though shouldn't we not automatically presume the worse about people? As I said I'm more inclined to believe that Wilson is a racist the more I find out about him but that is based on knowing more about his history. The problem I see with just throwing around the charge of racism in the current situation is that it becomes a method to short circuit debate and polarize. To me it strikes me the same as those who during the last Admin. through out the charge of "treason!" to opponents and cited some extreme comment by some who opposed the war to support that presumption. As I said I believe that there is definately a part of the opposition towards Obama and his policies that is racist but that doesn't mean that all of it is but if the counter argument towards criticism is "Racism!" I don't think that is helpful for the country.
