Who roots against our military? If anyone insults a General, it is not a traitorous act. It's called freedom of speech. Speaking as a member of a family who has had people serve in every major war in our history: Petraeus is a political toady who sold his independence for a short-term personal political gain. Does that make me a traitor? Does the fact that my uncle, a 2-Star in the Air Force, believes the same thing make him a traitor? If so, there's a heck of a lot of traitors out there. Whose political agenda depends on failure? Fact is, the Repubs political agenda absolutely depends on not admitting the reality of the failure. That you can't recognize that fact (or more likely, you refuse to accept it) is indicative of exactly what McClellan and others have said... that the only option for this administration is not governing or policy that makes sense, but spin that has to remain ideologically pure (which means whatever the WH decides is the dogma of the moment... their litany of contradictions have no effect on the true-believers). It must be so rewarding for you to cling to what you perceive as the absolute truth and hold it against everyone else who is so ignorant... but I would call it cowardice... you are afraid to look at reality and you have to twist the values and history of this country to fit your fraidy-cat world view. I know you love Ayn Rand, but you are an example of Objectivism run amok and the prime example of a third rate mind influencing the base selfishness of an empty vessel. You are the embodiment of John Kenneth Galbraith's quote: Except you quit searching when you thought Rand gave you the answers... but as bad as she was, even she put some sideboards in place that you have completely disregarded. I suggest you go back and try to distinguish between your self-absorbed self-interest and her rational self-interest. I'll leave you with a couple of quotes from the mediocre lady herself:
This is ignorant on a number of levels. It is possible to support the troops, to pray for the troops, and to hope for their quick success and safe return without being a mindless drone. You can be an American and not agree with everything the government does. Hell, that is one of the principles upon which our nation was founded. Again, for emphasis (because it is important), one can disagree with our involvement in Iraq. One can believe that a general is a political hack beholden to an administration with which that individual disagrees. That simply does not equate to rooting against our military. I have not seen a single poster on this board that seems happy when American soldiers return home wounded or deceased. Before you condemn somebody as a traitor for expressing disagreement with our current involvement in an armed conflict, I would suggest that you: 1. Go to a bookstore 2. Buy a pocket Constitution 3. Bother to read it. This may be a disturbing read for you. It actually says that we have a freedom of speech. Looking at the time period in which the Constitution was written, that certainly means that people in this great nation of ours have the right to express their disagreement with the government.
You have not supported their troops. 1. You have spoken out against brave the brave soldiers like the one who spilled the beans on the rotten soldiers and their deeds at Abu Ghraib. That soldier deserves a medal, but you have refused to join in the support for that. 2. You have refused to support the troops own manual which is against torture including waterboarding. You won't even support the troops on this. 3. You have were against the more generous GI bill that McCain didn't vote for. By your own words you are a traitor
Actually, none of the points you made above would indicate that T_J hopes our military loses the war, or that T_J's political ideology would benefit from a disaster in Iraq. If you could point to something that he said to that effect, then by his own words he'd be a traitor. If we are going to bash T_J, let's at least be accurate.
Not directly. But it does show a lack of support for our troops. Furthermore supporting American torture is very close since that will make it more difficult for our troops to win the war.
Doesn't everybody second guess all the candidates in effort to make an informed decision. I seriously don't get your logic.
you obviously have no idea what's actually happening in Iraq, nor why Petraeus is invaluable to our success there. if you're truly interested, and in more than political posturing, here's a good place to start. in fact, if you promise to read it with an open mind, i'll buy it for you. before you brand it right-wing propaganda, here's an excerpt: [rquoter]About four thousand Americans have dies in thei war, though I already hear grumblings on the Right saying this was not even a "war," but a "conflict." Repackaging the Iraq War as a skirmish dishonors those who fought here. The same people denied the insurgency and later civil war in Iraq and the catastrophe unfolding today in Afghanistan. All news organizations, from the newbie blogger to the New York Times, from right-wing talk radio to NPR, from CNN to Fox, all ultimately depend upon the financial support of their audiences. So readers and listeners and viewers should not be surprised when media organizations tell them what they want to hear. Happy news for the Left was that U.S. soldiers were demoralized and the war was being lost. Happy news for the Right was that there was no isurgency, then no civil war; we always had enough troops, and we were winning hands-down, except for the left-wing lunatics who were trying to unravel it all. They say heroin addicts are happy too, when they are out of touch with reality.[/rquoter] It's a quick read- his writing style is very blunt, and he makes no attempt to sugarcoat his story, nor does he make excuses for anyone. I just finished, and I can guarantee you it'll challenge your assumptions about Iraq, what we're doing there, why we're doing it, the reliability of the Iraqis, and the ultimate chances for being succeedful, and what it will mean if we are. Of course, you have to read it with an open mind...
In that case, you won't mind at all if I take up your recently given nickname of Traitor_Jorge. I will explain how you qualify later in the post. Not a single poster on this board, nor a single "liberal" I have ever known or heard has "root[ed]" against our military. Reporting the news from Iraq does not equal rooting against the military. Again, I have not heard anyone "insult[ing]" Petraeus, but I have heard plenty of criticism. Nobody's "political agenda" depends on defeat in Iraq. Personally, I would have preferred it went like Bush and his cronies said that it would so that we would not be wasting American money, lives, and reputation on an action that was ill-concieved, not planned at all, and executed in the worst way possible. But you will ignore this paragraph just like you have ignored the dozens of times I have said it before. You must love getting pwned by Mirriam-Webster... trai·tor 1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty 2 : one who commits treason trea·son 1 : the betrayal of a trust : treachery 2 : the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family Nobody here has an "obligation or duty" to blindly support an administration that takes this country to war. Bush and his cabal never trusted the public enough to tell us the truth about what they knew regarding Iraq before the war. Instead, they cherry picked "intelligence" that was given to us by the Iranian proxy, Chalabi, and gave us only the information that they knew would bolster the case for war, even when very credible sources said all along that the "intelligence" was false. OK, Traitor, I will start. You have both the obligation and duty to question your government and its leaders. That is the sacred trust that our founding fathers created when they wrote the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. They gave us not only the ability to question the government, but they made it our solemn DUTY to do so. In blindly following the Bush junta, you are betraying the trust of our founding fathers. In supporting Bush's attempts to subvert our Constitution, you are doing the same. You are far more a traitor than anyone who, before the war, were saying things that became very nearly prophetic. Many of us saw that Iraq was the wrong thing to do and, upholding our sacred duty to speak out, we did our best to make it clear that Iraq would not be the cakewalk described by the Bushies. You are the traitor.
I was very angry about the Bush policies....for 6 of the 8 years of his Presidency....now I am sort of beginning to allow a little amusement to creep in amid the horror. And the Bush Bots (I am not gonna say conservatives, cause I think they are two different species) are starting to get very ANGRY. The kind of Angry I was only once...when I was volunteering for the Dukakis campaign. Yeah, right before we got routed. Hopefully that is a good sign. I don't think the Republicans can win this race, the Democrats will have to try hard to lose it.
Your message indicated that before he even took office, you had determined that this president did not deserve your support. I'm not talking about determining who to vote for; I'm talking about not automatically opposing everything he does and constantly undermining his decisions. Bush and his administration made their decisions (to whatever degree right or wrong-- neither extreme I would assert) and they went about trying to make those decisions work. It takes a lot more character to see the thing through than it does to blow in the political wind.
You keep asserting this, yet I can't remember how/if you substantiated the theory. The theory is that torture doesn't work yet we have anecdotes of times it did work and untold damage was averted. How is that eventuality going to prolong the war effort?
Really excellent post, Refman. Kudos and thanks for bringing your perspective here as someone, like Max, who's core principals might lay in a conservative direction, but recognize there are fundamental American beliefs and values the current administration has walked away from, eagerly (IMO), with the equally eager support of those like Trader_J. little texxx, and dear basso. We can all disagree on a host of issues, but agree on the bedrock of America, our constitution, one of the great documents ever created in the history of this beautiful ball hurtling through space. When those like the three members I mentioned resort to Joe McCarthy tactics, instead of the give and take of honest discussion, it demeans them, demeans this forum, almost insures a discussion devolves into bitter words, and it is incumbent on everyone else to call them out when it happens. There shouldn't be a place for such disgusting behavior here. What civility we have left certainly is reduced by it. Impeach Bush.
oh, please, you're as complicit in the toxic atomosphere here as any other poster. just because some of us disagree with you does not mean we're resorting to mccarthy tactics. and i would suggest that your unwillingness to consider the admin might have any redeeming qualities, and has acted in the interests of protecting american citizens, undercuts everything else you post.
