Kobe had one thing that MJ and Lebron didn't have.

In the 05-06 season, Phoenix was the #2 seed.

 

Kobe is the reason Karl Malone doesn't have a championship. When Karl was a Laker, Kobe took the most shots and had the worst shooting percentage of the big four. I will always be thankful to Kobe for his greatest accomplishment.

 

Seriously?? I did not have a lot of respect for your basketball opinion, but post makes it even less.
When I compare all time greats I look at the following:
Team Success (most important when they are the best player on the team)
Individual success
Stats
Peak Level
Longevity

Duncan has
5 Championships (of which he was the best player in at least 3 of them)
3 Final MVPs
2 regular season MVP

Barkley
0 Championships
0 Final MVPs
1 Regular season MVP
His stats are great (better than Duncan), but his defence was terrible

Karl Malone
0 Championships
0 Final MVPs
1 Regular season MVP
Stats are similar to Duncan, But Duncans defence was much better

Kevin Garnett
1 Championships (debatable who was the best player, but I would vote for Garnett)
0 Final MVPs
1 Regular season MVP
Stats slightly less than Duncan, Both great defensive Players

Mchale
3 Championships (none were he was the best player on his team
0 Final MVPs
0 Regular season MVP
I’m a huge Mchale (as a player) fan, I loved his style, but the fact that you include him in this discussion is comical.

Malone and Dawkins were centers.

So none of your list are clearly better (and in my opinion they were clearly inferior), so it is logical that Duncan seen as possibly the greatest at his position.

When we look at Kobe, he is clearly not as good as Jordan
Jordan
6 Championships (The best player in all of them)
6 Final MVPs
5 Regular season MVP

Bryant
5 Championships (The best player in 2 of them)
2 Final MVPs
1 Regular season MVP
The stats of Jordan are clearly better, and Jordan was a better defender.

Jordan is clearly better (Kobe is also impressive, but not as much as Jordan, and In my opinion not as impressive as Duncan) So Kobe is not seen as the best of his position. I really do not undestand why it is so hard for you to understand this

I am not even going to go into detail to this post. If you suggest that players Like Otis Thorpe, Elton Brand Chris Webber were better than Duncan, you really do not understand basketball, so I am going to assume you didn’t not suggest that

Worse than winning a Championship, better than not making the finals.
You say his record could get worse, but it also could get better.

 

Ok so you agree that Kobe was not the best player on his team 3 of his championships. And you agree that since he was not the best player on his team those championships should count less when comparing all time greats? Ok great than we agree on something. and it is possible to use logic with you unlike Goodbug/GoROx2013)

Ofcourse Kobe stepped up when Shaq was out or played bad, that is what Role players are supposed to do. . To be clear that was a joke, Kobe was much more than a role player on those teams, But he was not the best player on that team. Shaq was clearly the better player on those championships, and therefore I count those 3 championships less when comparing all time greats. Which means Kobe only won 2 championships as the best player on his team.

btw the fact that teams design their entire defence around guarding Shaq is also a sign that Kobe was much less important for the championship. Tyson Chandler was extremely important for the Dallas championship (they would not have won that championship without him), but nobody in their right mind would have called him the best player on that team. It is similar for Kobe in the lakers 3peat.

 

Karl Malone got injured in the Western Conference Finals and didn't play in the Finals that year. What about the year Malone wasn't able to beat the Bulls in the Finals?

 

So you don't actually watch basketball right? Why don't you watch the 4th quarter of every Lakers playoff game during the Kobe/Shaq years. If Shaq was capable of winning with any guard, he would have done it on those Orlando teams with Penny Hardaway and Dennis Scott. I remember when people were saying Shaq would never win a championship because he's a liability in the 4th quarter. I guess it's convenient now to forget that and just focus on Kobe hate.

 

Again like we have said a thousand times, the shaq in Orlando was not the same shaq as during the 3peat. I do not understand why this is so hard to understand for you. Are you trying to say that Shaq was not as important as kobe in the fourth quarter?

I have said before Kobe was important for the 3peat, just not as important as Shaq. Do you disagree with this?

Kobe was important but not irreplacable. For example a great shooter like Ray Allen would also have done great with Shaq.

 

Stop it. Shaq was a BEAST in Orlando. If you watched his game, you'd notice nothing drastically different other than his weight in LA. Kobe replaceable but Shaq had Penny but didn't get it done? Once again Kobe haters making him chit to discredit him outta the conversation



5 rings is 5 rings. Period

 

Too easy, record of raping a blonde. I am sure it has already been pointed out by most non Kobe fans.

 

Didn't they find like 5 different semen specimen in her underwear? She was clearly looking for a payday and prolly told him to do it rough.

 

There has never been a year where Kobe was better than Tim Duncan, I would even go as far as to say that there has never been a year Kobe was better than Dirk or KG as well. Those 5 rings Kobe got were rings KG, Dirk and TD could've gotten as well if they were the ones playing with Shaq and Gasol/Odom. Oth, considering how badly Kobe fared when he was the only star on his team I doubt he could've won a ring with the Spurs, Dallas or Boston.

I'm not belittling Kobe, but the fact is franchise big men are better than franchise 6'5 swing men, which is why MJ is extremely special.

 

Penny-Kobe wasn't the only thing that changed genius, you also had Phil Jackson and a whole bunch of Laker role players like Fisher, Horry and Fox coming in.

 

Where your point fails though is that Shaq had an All Star Shooting Guard in LA with Eddie Jones and couldn't get to the finals, which is why your argument is so weak. If Shaq and any All Star shooting guard could do it, why did he fail to win with Penny Hardaway AND Eddie Jones?

And I'll take it one step further, in 1998, Shaq had two All Stars, Nick Van Exel AND Eddie Jones were both on the All Star team in the WEST that season, starting in the backcourt alongside Shaq, and they didn't win the title.

Your argument is totally built on hate. Fact is Shaq failed multiple times with other guards.

 

You have to consider development and opposition. Do you honestly expect a 3rd year Shaq and a 2nd year Hardaway to win a title against a 1995 Hakeem Olajuwon, who was playing at GOAT level? Those are unrealistic expectations. You have to give them time to mature as players and gel as a team.

Actually, in 1998, Kobe was also an all-star. The Lakers had 4 all-stars that year: Shaq/Kobe/Eddie Jones/Nick Van Exel. And they started Robert Horry at PF. Does that really sound like a team built around Shaq?

 

What you're forgetting is Phil Jackson. The Kobe/Shaq combo didn't win anything either, until a certain triangle offense was brought to LA.

 

Aside from the 2000 finals, Kobe didn't play that well in the 2004 finals either. The 02-03 season was the only season that a case could be made that Kobe was better or Shaq's equal while they were together.

Sometimes, Kobe gets too much credit for the Lakers success since 2008, especially compared to the front court of the Lakers. Pau Gasol took all the blame for the 2008 finals, yet Kobe's averages took a bigger decline. Gasol's rebounding increased in the finals. Gasol shot 60% against Dwight in the finals, and didn't get enough touches. In the 2010 finals, Gasol was the best rebounder and shot blocker in the series, he improved his defense, and he helped limit Garnett to 5 rebounds per game. His assist average was the same as Kobe's and he had one less total assist despite limited touches. Although Kobe was better than Gasol, cases could be made that the team played better around Gasol and that Gasol could have outperformed Kobe more often if Kobe didn't dominate the ball so much. Commentators referenced the Lakers not taking advantage of their size enough, and how Pau got cold because he wasn't involved enough.

I agree that Kobe could have been replaced by a few guys during his time with Shaq, and during his time with Gasol, although Kobe was better than most of them. Aside from the 2013-2014 season when the Lakers started well before having so many injuries, the Lakers always had a winning record without Kobe, and sometimes beat teams that they usually struggle against.

While Kobe spent 2 to 3 seasons on bad teams, other great players spent more time on bad teams. I didn't think the 04-05 Lakers team was that bad, they just had a lot of injuries. The teams Michael Jordan played on throughout the 80s and early 90s weren't that deep and often went against more talented teams.

Kobe being clutch and "knowing how to win" is overstated. In terms of making late shots in the game, he isn't much better than Dirk or other current and past players. He's gotten blown out in playoff elimination games at least 7 times, plus he blew a 3-1 series lead against a Phoenix team that wasn't at full strength. Pau Gasol outperformed him in game 7 against Houston in 2009, and in game 7 against Boston in 2010. Even in defeat, his efficiency and all-around great games aren't as good as other stars. In the playoffs throughout 2010 and 2011, he missed at least 3 shots that could have put the game away. Two of those shots were putback by Pau Gasol and Ron Artest. In the 2010 finals, Pau Gasol had better 4th quarter numbers than Kobe.

 

Penny was healthy and Shaq was there for one single year after losing in the 95 finals, and they lost in the conference finals to some team that went 72-10....they would have probably won the nba title that year had that team not existed, and no incarnation of Kobe could have helped beat that team, and penny was still only in his 3rd year. To add to that, Penny was a better player in his 2nd year (when they lost in the finals) than Kobe was in his 4th (when they won), the competition matters a bit.

 

This is so ridiculous though, its excuse after excuse to discredit 3 of Kobe's titles. Every single time you Kobe haters make criticism, you come back with some other excuse. Its insane. The guy's point was that any all star SG could have replaced Kobe, simply not true.

And Shaq averaged 28/11 in 1998 so don't give me that nonsense that the team wasn't build around him, it had similar construction to the 2001 & 2002 teams which won, and this one in 1998 didn't. Only difference, Kobe's game was at a high high level in 2001 and 2002.

And Shaq was absolutely freakishly dominant in Orlando. He didn't win there. You're saying "Do you honestly expect Penny Hardaway at age 24 to win a title", GUESS WHAT KOBE WON WHEN HE WAS 21!! Are you insane?

 

I think the point is valid, but you have to give that team a chance to mature and gel.

Absolutely wrong. In 1998, the Lakers starting lineup featured a shoot-first pg (Van Exel), a sg (Jones), a sf (Fox), another sf (Horry), and a center (Shaq). Basically, 2 shooting guards, 2 small forwards, and a center.

In 2001, the Lakers starting lineup featured Fisher/Shaw/Harper at pg, Kobe at sg, Fox at sf, Horace Grant at pf, and Shaq at C.

Those two teams had totally different constructions.

When Kobe was 21, he was in his 4th year in the NBA, and Shaq was 27 and in his 9th year. When Hardaway was 23, he was in his 2nd year in the NBA, and Shaq was 22 and in his 3rd year. Big difference.

You can't just look at age, you also have to consider a player's development as well as his opponent. In 1995, Olajuwon was playing at a GOAT level. In 1996, the Bulls finished with the best record in NBA history.

 

The Kobe clutchfans defense force is hilarious every single time

they prey the dish every day for any "haterz" and jump out with their dick slobbering and then go back into their little Kobe worshiping hole again when the thread dies.