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Westbrook vs Harden

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by heypartner, Oct 30, 2012.

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  1. Lihao

    Lihao Member

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    i would love to able to compare with a bigger sample size, it's not my fault that Harden can't get past the first round
     
  2. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Well you can, just look at 2013 numbers

    in 78 games Harden shot the ball 88 fewer times and scored 849 more points. Westbrook shot 32.3% from 3, Harden shot 36.8%. Westbrook had .5 fewer turnovers per game while dominating the ball more. Harden averaged .206 win shares per 48 while Westbrook averaged a career best .195 win shares per 48.

    If Westbrook was able to shoot the ball worth a damn and had a much better BBIQ then he could potentially be a better player than Harden. Unfortunately for Thunder fans, that's not the case.
     
  3. aumate

    aumate Member

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    Who were the Rockets playing against again?
     
  4. RedRedemption

    RedRedemption Contributing Member

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    Historically, Harden plays very well against the Spurs. Regular season and playoffs.
    Not excuses for Westbrook.
     
  5. AirBud#10

    AirBud#10 Member

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    I am really starting to believe there is a huge difference in players who are built for the playoffs and players that aren't, I'm not saying that Harden isn't a player who's game can translate to the playoffs, but I know for a fact after watching this year that Westbrook is one.

    Shots that are inefficient in the regular season like mid-range jumpers become the MOST efficient shots come playoff time since defenses are locked in and they do everything they can to stop shots in the paint and open 3s leaving mid range shots relatively open, which is why we got killed by Aldridge (who is another player who's game is perfect for the playoffs).
     
  6. aumate

    aumate Member

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    2014 Spurs is way better than the 2012 Spurs.
     
  7. aumate

    aumate Member

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    Also, you can pretty much just disregard the regular seasons since Spurs rest there big 3 a lot.
     
  8. AirBud#10

    AirBud#10 Member

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    Looking at the last few NBA champions this becomes even more apparent

    the last two years the Heat won it, their "big 3" aren't 3 point shooters (Lebron and Bosh shoot them well, but they rarely take them and Wade pretty much doesn't shoot them at all), and they are all great midrange shooters.

    in 2011 The Mavs won it behind a great performance from their superstar Dirk, who again is primarily a mid-range shooter (and one of the best of all time).

    in 09 & 10 the Lakers won with their 3 primary scorers being either midrange shooters or great post players (another type of shot that is inefficient in the reg-season, but is very efficient come playoff time)

    The year before that the Celtics won it with KG (great mid range and post game), Pierce (great midrange and post game), and Ray Allen (admittedly primarily a 3 point shooter, but he was only allowed to camp at the 3 point line because he was the 3rd option behind the other 2)

    This midrange/post scoring trend continues throughout NBA history

    -Duncan's Spurs

    -Kobe/Shaq's Lakers

    -Jordan's Bulls

    -Hakeem's Rockets

    while I can't find one team who's allstar(s) excelled behind the arc and ignored the mid-range game. I guess I kind of went off on a tangent there, but basically I'm saying that judging from the NBA's history it is really unlikely that the Rockets will win a title without a midrange/post scorer, so either Harden has to improve his midrange game, Dwight has to improve his post game (yeah right) or someone like Melo has to be brought in to do the heavy lifting come playoff time.
     
  9. Aleron

    Aleron Contributing Member

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    I have no idea what to tell anyone that thinks Dallas didn't win by raining 3's or that Lebron is a midrange player (Harden shoots it better than he does, but it doesn't really matter because Lebron is no mid range player).
     
  10. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    When you are pushing a narrative, very seldom does the truth matter.
     
  11. AirBud#10

    AirBud#10 Member

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    Dallas did make a lot of 3s, but they weren't lead by a 3 point shooting star. 3s definitely have their place, I wasn't trying to say that 3s were bad, just that all-stars can't lead a team to a title by shooting 3s. Role players can get off open 3s much easier than All/Superstars so the 3 remains a relatively efficient shot for them in the playoffs. As for LeBron I guess he was a poor example (though he does shoot more mid-range shots than 3s), but you can't really compare any other player to LeBron, that guy is a freak no one can be expected to get to the rim like he can.
     
  12. AirBud#10

    AirBud#10 Member

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    I'm really not trying to push anything, I'm a huge Harden fan and I would love nothing more than for him to lead the Rockets to a title, it's just that judging from what has happened in the past, if Harden doesn't add a mid range game (I actually think he is already a very good mid range player, but he needs to be more willing to take that shot) it's unlikely that he will.
     
  13. AirBud#10

    AirBud#10 Member

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    I guess I should have added this, you CAN be a slasher and be an effective scorer in the playoffs, you just have to be a freak of nature (Ex: Jordan, LeBron, Westbrook, Rose, young Wade, ect.), but Harden is far from the athlete those guys are.
     
  14. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    WB doesn't have bad teammates.

    He has the MVP!

    Just wow.
     
  15. BigBenito

    BigBenito Member

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    GJ eviscerating your own argument? LeBron left for better teammates. lol
     
  16. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    WB's supporting cast > LeBron's supporting cast.

    Imagine if LeBron had Durant to play with!
     
  17. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

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    A better question would be "Who are the opposing defenses scheming to stop in each series"?

    If you were preparing a team to play the Rockets in a playoff series how would you play them defensively?

    OKC and Portland have both played us the same way and had great success. Have one big playing centerfield in the paint and when Harden puts the ball on the floor have a 2nd big drop back into the paint. Harden's man overplays to the outside and forces Harden back to the middle where the help is waiting.

    The benefit of that strategy is that when Harden drives he has to beat 3 guys(two of them being big men) to get to the rim. The cost for playing that type of defense is that you end up having to play Howard 1-on-1 and the Houston PF gets wide open looks. Unfortunately in the last two playoffs we haven't been able to make either OKC or Portland pay for playing us that way.


    Same question for OKC...how would you play them? Teams scheme to take away Durant as much as possible. The cost of that is that you have to play Westbrook 1-on-1. In the San Antonio series it paid off as they were able to limit Durant to 25.8pts/game on 47.5 FG% and 33.3 3FG%. That's down from his regular season average of 32 pts/game on 50.3 FG% and 39.1 3FG%. San Anonio was able to get away with playing that way because despite giving Westbrook lots of chance to go 1-on-1 he only shot 40.7% FG% and 28.1% 3FG%. If Westbrook had shot the ball better then San Antonio would have had to change how they played defense and Durant would have gotten better looks.

    Teams have done that for years. You take away as much as possible from the opponents best player until they do enough to make you play differently.

    Detroit had their Jordan rules and they worked until Chicago put the right players around Jordan so that they could take advantage of the way teams were playing them.

    Ditto for the early 90's Rockets. The Sonics doubled Olajuwon with Kemp and swarmed him with guards whenever he tried to post up. It worked until Houston surrounded Olajuwon with 3 point shooters that you couldn't leave open and they eventually brought in Barkley to force Kemp to play his own man.

    Every team has seen the game films of how OKC and Portland played us and how Miami played Harden in the 2012 Finals. Until we prove that we can beat that type of defense we'll continue to see it. It's Morey's job to put the right complementary players on the court so that the cost of playing that type of defense is higher than the benefit to slowing Harden down.

    Once we start making teams pay for playing us that way then Harden will all of a sudden be great in the playoffs and people can attribute it to whatever the like.
     
  18. Lihao

    Lihao Member

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    so during regular season, people defending Harden's poor defense display said that it's just regular season and doesn't matter, he would step up in the playoff.
    And now when we comparing his playoff stats to others , you tell me hey he's played better offensively during regular season. hmm interesting
     
  19. Mr. Clutch

    Mr. Clutch Contributing Member

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    Westbrook's usage in the playoffs has been higher than LeBron's.

    SMFH!
     
  20. Bobbythegreat

    Bobbythegreat Member
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    Deflection with straw man arguments aren't really effective.
     

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