diogenes, You guys act like I have no sources and am just making up history. That is not true. Doc Rocket reported in mid-July that the Rockets are no longer going to trade Kenny in the summer, although he previously reported they would. <b>Doc Rocket said:</b> "We will not trade Kenny this summer, <b>for reason I cannot say.</b> But we will trade one of our PF by January." Now, the trade deadline is in February. The "by January" deadline was weird and happens to be exactly when Lewis could be traded again following a resigning as a free agent in the Summer. Now, Clutch said MoT was 70lbs overweight, and several sources said MoT was untradeable. Doc said "one of our PFs" would be traded. That only leaves Griffin or Kenny. Further, the Rockets not only were after a SF (proven by the Posey trade), but they also coveted Lewis, and he was best available. Further, we can toss aside the Seattle source saying "the Rockets wouldn't trade Eddie" by realizing that statement was <b>after Lewis signed</b> and Dawson would probably not work a trade with Eddie and let the info escape, especially in a failed attempt. The time between that article and Doc's post that more than 1 PF was being shopped was over a month. The time between Doc's post and Lewis signing was roughly 1 1/2 months. So, I ask Clutch and anyone else again, our source Doc Rocket says we were shopping more than one PF. Given that SnTs with Base Year Compensation players are the most difficult trades to work out, we have a lot of proof here that CD was indeed listening to Griffin for Lewis ideas. as an aside, Feigen reported that it took over a month to work out Kenny's trade. I does not sound like CD just hung up the phone. <b>You all piece it together:</b> Doc said more than one PF was being shopped for a SF. He was not allowed to say why or who. MoT was untradeable. Doc's deadline to move one of the PFs was exactly when Lewis could have been traded again after resigning...the rule is Dec 15th or 3 months after signing, whichever is later Lewis signed on Sept 19th. Come on guys...Doc told us...and I have proven that the trade is very hard to consummate. We had to convince Seattle to sign Walt for 3yrs. Why is this grasping at straws. I'm on a roll. in the end, there's no one out there that can work this trade out with "baggage" if we assume you can't SnT Walt to a 3yr deal or pass off Moochie's contract to a 3rd team with cap space. 1 + 1 = 2
I'm not arguing that the trade was possible (I don't think anybody is). No need to challenge the realgm stuff. The point is that CD (apparently) didn't want to trade Griffin for Lewis straight up, let alone Griffin + baggage. Again, I agree that the trade was not a no-brainer as some CD/Rudy bashers suggest.
no edit sorry, the article was not "after Lewis signed." Article was Aug, the Lewis signing was Sept.
Then explain to me why Doc Rocket said Kenny wasn't being traded in the summer, but "one of our PFs would be traded by January." And please don't tell me one of those PFs was supposed to have been Maurice.
See the thing is, if anyone can pull up the old post, we all said that CD probably laughed till it hurt and then hung up the phone. Back then, EG was valued higher than Rashard. Hell, some said he could be better than Garnett. At the beginning of the year, many valued Eddie enough to accept a Moochie Norris type as cap filler.
You are not following me. Moochie would be going to the 3rd team who wouldn't be getting Eddie. The best possible "baggage" trade is convincing Seattle to sign Walt to 3yrs/$10m, and find a 3rd team to expend cap space or luxury tax/trade exception on Moochie and nothing else, cept maybe a future pick. Come on....where are the trade analysts around here. You guys are grasping at one quote by an unnamed source who is *very possibly* only confirming that CD would never let it slip that we were shopping Eddie, especially given that Doc nearly dotted his I's in July that we were shopping Eddie. Where is my Search when I need it. *sigh*
HP, I'm not really sure that I see the point that you are trying to make, but let me throw something out there. Seems that your argument (whatever it's about), is centered around the fact that it's hard to trade a BYC player. What if Lewis wanted to come to Houston and would take slightly less money to play at home? Using Patricia Bender's salary numbers, Lewis was making $4.4M in the last year of his expiring contract. So, Lewis could be resigned for a first year salary of up to 120% of that amount without becoming a BYC player. That means that Lewis could have taken a deal with a first year salary of $5.28M and not become a BYC player. That's only $1M less than what he signed for in Seattle. I can't say that Lewis would be willing to do that, but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Coincidentally, Griffin and Moochie's salaries (based on P. Bender's numbers) add up to $5.32M. So, if Rashard isn't a BYC player, then that deal works perfectly. Again, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, so if this is irrelevant to your subject, then ignore it.
Steve Francis rips the Mavs in the press and promises a victory over Dallas, but Dallas promptly kicks the crap out of the Rockets by 30 points. But when the final horn sounds, Francis continues taunting the Mavs, daring them to "beat the Rockets in overtime". No one knows what the hell Steve is talking about since the challenge was already met, the game is over and Francis already lost, but Steve just won't accept it. heypartner = Francis.
aelliott, your right. I am assuming that the $6.75m that Lewis signed for was his bare minimum. My numbers that assume we had to move ~$7m are based on Lewis and his agent asking for ~$8m in a SnT as they often alluded to. My point is that CD is being bashed for hanging up the phone on an Eddie for Lewis trade when there is more sources and proof that say we didn't hang up the phone. 1. Doc's comment in mid-July that Kenny trades were on hold until January 2. Walt went to Seattle for a workout or something 3. Lewis signed for $6.75m and all indications are that was bare minimum, making him BYC 4. A Seattle source saying we wouldn't trade Eddie is right in line with hush/hush talks such as Doc saying "for reasons I can't say" 5. We were definitely going to trade a PF for a SF...and Doc said more than 1 PF was being considered for trade.
Clutch, Of course you know, the Francis analogy means I can point out Vescey quotes that were flat out wrong and say the Seattle source = Vescey, and he was not privy to what would have been very hush hush talk that he admitted was presented to the Rockets. Please pull the Doc Rocket quote from Mid-July for us, since we don't have search. If you are allowed to, tell us why Doc Rocket said Kenny trades were on hold "for reasons I cannot say" and "but one of our PFs would be traded by January." That has still never been explained. Why wouldn't he just say, "but Kenny would be traded by January?" He already said Kenny would be traded in the Summer.
Heyp, is trying to say that CD didn't screw up. I love his loyalty, that means alot. However, could we have aquired Rahim or Lewis without giving up our nucleus? The answer seems to point to yes, third team or not. Now, that doesn't mean CD is an idiot. It would seem that maybe the management overestimated EG's abilities. Or, they knew he was an underachiever with arguably the most talent on this team (including Steve and Yao) and didn't want to pull the trigger. Rest assured, if Lewis/Griffin had been made, the outcry here would have been ridiculous. Hindsight is a b**** sometimes.
Not discrediting the good doctor, but are you telling me a team would have taken KT over Eddie? Maybe a contender like Philly, but there aren't or should I say weren't 7 gms in the league that would take KT over Eddie.
Yes GMs would take Griffin over Kenny but Griffin at that time would surely bring us a better SF than Posey who Kenny brought us as well.
Rocket101: You called me all the way over from the Manor for this? Man, I had Julie Newmar's daughter over there wearing the old catsuit. Oh well, long as I'm here... HP makes a very good point that there's no credible evidence that CD would have turned down a straight EG for Lewis trade (even though a lot of the people bashing CD for it would have turned down the same straight trade when it was allegedly offered.). Some people say the point is that he wouldn't have agreed to the principle players, but the only source for that is the Seattle article which I think HP credibly shows to be suspect. And I would also love to know what was in Doc's mind when he made the Kenny post. HP's explanation of that is the most feasible I've seen as well, and lends logic to the idea that CD was willing to part with EG for Rashard. The reason HP keeps posting is because no one's answered any of his basic questions (other than where the idea of CD rejecting the deal came from in the first place), and if people want to bash CD they should at least confine their bashing to stuff we actually know he did.
No kidding, there's enough ammo to go around fellas. Here, let me throw you guys a free one...Mirsad Turkson.
Would you people be on rashard lewis and his jockstrap if he was not from Houston? Last time I checked his attitude and the way he handles himself is no better than eddie. Sure we can talk about #'s and stats but Lewis plays more minutes. Matter of fact what type of player goes and gets suspended the last final game of the season for throwing his mouth piece at a ref. Yeah Eddie got busted with a joint but hey he was OFF THE COURT. How much you think Lewis is gonna like sharing the spotlight with Ray Allen now next season?. Seattle lets Lewis "think" he is the main star of that team but everyone should know Ray Allen will take it over.
CD has issues... I think we could find a better GM on the BBS! He makes sh!tty decisions (ie. fat contracts to sh!tty players like Mooch, MO Taylor and were still paying Matt Maloney something like 6 mill for the next two years!) I think the Rox need to fire his sorry ass, give Rudy ONE LAST shot, trade one of our Power Fowards for someone more physical, and sign a pure shooter in the offseason! There you have it... Our playoff woes are solved!
Damn, HP. You really are dogged on this. Who knows what the truth was? Of course the easy press release from CD would be, "We don't want to part with EG." We got that at least twice last year: when the question of Rashard came up; and then the chance for Shareef Abdur-Rahim. I think a few different factors came up. Of course, so many people, inside and outside the organization, were still hoping that EG was the next Garnett or Jermaine O'Neal. Hoping, yes; because unlike Jerry West and Joe Dumars, the Rox organization was unwilling to admit and trade a draft mistake (especially since three #1 picks were spent on him and, really, essentially, four were spent, because those 3 picks could have been Jefferson, Randolph, and Morris, and we could have saved the future #1 pick from Detroit that we gave to Atlanta for T-Mo). And would we have given up a "3 #1 picks" player for a guy we blew off with one single #1 pick (Shard)? Some people are just stubborn. But to actually make the trade (since HP's adamant about this), it is true, if we had actually wanted to make the trade, we would have had to find a 3rd team, as well as give up EG and another 4 million bucks (or so); and send no more than $3.2 mil worth in players to Seattle. Chicago would have been a good bet, perhaps sending Crawford (Seattle native) and freeing up the problem of Crawford/Williams at the point in Chicago. I still wonder if we held off on trading EG until the summer, just to see if he could step up a bit for us so we can say we "gave him two years, but he just didn't work out for us, especially trying to develop alongside Yao". Maybe the SAR trade will be revisited. Maybe it won't.
Aelliot's scenerio, while workable, ignores the fact that Rashard would have rather played in Dallas than Houston. Under Aelliot's scenerio, we could have only offered a deal starting at $700,000 more than Dallas' middle class exception, which would probably not have been enough enticement. Especially when Rashard made statements that Dallas was a better organization, and he knew that Cuban would open the bank vaults after 3 years without regard to the luxury tax (which Les has said he would not pay). But the deal could have been done. It would have had to have gone through either Chicago or the Clips, the only two teams that were under the cap last summer. This deal would have worked: Seattle trades: Rashard Lewis to Houston - $X Receives: Eddie Griffin - $2.16 million Jason Collier - $1.37 million Terrance Morris - $.512 million Houston trades: Eddie Griffin to Seattle - $2.16 million Jason Collier to Seattle - $1.37 million Terrance Morris to Seattle - $.512 million Kenny Thomas to Chicago or LA Clips - $1.56 million Receives: Rashard Lewis - $X Draft pick or chosen unsigned player from Chicago or LA Clips - $0 Chicago or LA Clips trades: Draft pick or chosen unsigned player to Houston - $0 Receives: Kenny Thomas - $1.56 million Seattle would be receiving salaries of only $4.04 million, which works. Houston would be sending out salaries of $5.60. They could receive back 15% more, + 100K, i.e. $6.54 million. Rashard signed for a base of $6.23 million, so this works (unless Rashard wanted us to pay more than Seattle would for leaving him crying in the green room ). Also, if giving up KT is too much for the Rockets to stomach, then sign and trade Walt at a deal starting at only $1.5 million and send him to Seattle instead of Collier. I think that only the first year of the 3 year deal has to be guaranteed (remember the Brad Miller to Chicago deal?). Send Collier to Chicago, plus a release of the Drew obligation, in exchange for a 2nd round pick in 2007 (Chicago would want consideration to take Collier off our hands). Or send Collier to LA Clips + $3 million (Sterling would do anything to make money). Bottom line - the deal would not have been impossible. The Rockets would have just had to make it worth Chicago or LA Clips' while to take on $1.3 to $1.5 million in a one-year salary obligation.
