[Feigen] Harden and Howard want Asik and Lin to stay

The term jiz never gets old. lol.

 

So, you love the jiz?

 

The term is a fine distinction of the Jazz. Now you'r sick mind was wondering somewhere i'm not going to go here.

 

I don't think so. There were three teams - Lakes, Nets and Mavs Dwight originally told Orlando he was open to go to. That didn't prevent other teams including Houston, Philly, etc. to talk to Orlando. If he had such a strong interest in LA and "demanded" to be traded there, one would think he would have agreed to a long term deal in 2012 with the Lakers already.

The key of the deal was that Orlando thought they got the best deal out there that gave them immediate help and draft picks, and they got to unload J Rich's contract. Morey's offers no where near that. NJ's better offer was gone with the signing of Joe Johnson.

And, Dwight finally agreed to the trade because the Nets got tired of waiting, went out and signed Joe Johnson, leaving them with no meaningful asset and cap space to do a deal with Orlando. Secondly, Nash signed with the Lakers and campaigned for Dwight. Everybody thought LA was the best place for him.

 

He said he didnt want to go to LA. Also said he didnt want to follow in Shaq's footsteps. But hey who knows LOL

 

Morey's offer crushed that.

Yes, they "got to unload" J-Rich's contract... by taking back even worse contracts in Al Harrington and Afflalo, and delaying any significant cap space until the summer of 2015. As far as "draft picks", the only potentially relevant ones (i.e. a first rounder that isn't guaranteed to be in the 20s) don't come until 2016 and 2017.

What immediate help did they get, exactly? Afflalo and his PER of 13 that led them to a league-worst 20 wins? Harrington, who had a PER of 10 and played a whopping 10 games all season? A mediocre mid-first rounder (Harkless) in a bad draft? Vucevic was solid (after all, someone has to get a few rebounds for anyone), but that was a disaster of a trade. It's pretty clear Hennigan chose the deal he did for reasons other than what was best for the Magic on the floor.

 

This is what Orlando got:
"The Magic will receive Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington, Nikola Vucevic, rookie swingman Moe Harkless, forward Josh McRoberts, forward Christian Eyenga, a first-round pick from either the Nuggets or the New York Knicks in 2014, a protected first-round pick from the Sixers, a protected first-round pick from the Lakers in 2017, a second-round pick from the Nuggets in 2013 and a conditional second-rounder from the Lakers in 2015. " -- Yahoo Sports

That's 2 1st round picks in the loaded 2014 draft, bruh!

Can you say one (or two) from the group of Jones, Lamb, White, Dmo, Pat and Marcus Morris is better than Afflalo, Harringtion and Vucevic? They got proven players who could step in and fill the roster, Houston only offered potential. On paper Orlando got the best they could after the Nets dropped out, plus 5 future picks. Afflalo and Harrington not playing to their expectation is a different story.

Here's what the Orlando Sentinel said about Hennigan:
"Magic ended up with a couple of nice, young building blocks in big man Nik Vucevic and Maurice Harkless, a consummate pro in Arron Afflalo and five future draft picks.... Young Magic GM Rob Hennigan, who many NBA insiders said got "fleeced" when he traded Dwight last year, now looks like the second coming of Jerry West. And Lakers GM Mitch Kupchak looks like the second coming of Jerry Lewis."

Now can you elaborate "It's pretty clear Hennigan chose the deal he did for reasons other than what was best for the Magic on the floor" ?

 

Harrington was an albatross contract Denver dumped in the deal. To say he "underperformed" is like trading for Mo Taylor and say he underperformed.
Vucevic was a rookie drafted as a late 1st rounder who no one thought highly of.
Afflalo was a good role player making Asik level money. He didn't underperform. That is him.
All future picks were heavily protected meaning regardless of how any draft is, Orlando is not getting anyone.

You can argue whether the Rockets deal was better, but you can't argue that they got basically gazillion future role players on paper and no cap relief. All for the price of a top-5 NBA player.

 

Where'd you get two? There's one 2014 pick in that deal, and it's the lower of two picks from the Nuggets/Knicks, two playoff teams from a year ago. So congrats, Orlando, you got a pick around 23. By the way, did you notice all the "protected" in there?

EDIT: It's even worse than I remembered... even the 2016 and 2017 picks are protected! Wow.

http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/draft/future_drafts/detailed

Proven players that led them to 20 wins, the worst record in the NBA. What an accomplishment! Not playing to their expectation? Harrington was an injury-prone veteran on the verge of falling off the cliff. Afflalo was a disaster waiting to happen as a "top option" and everyone knew it. Moreover, the "future picks" are almost worthless because virtually none are of any value, at least until 2016 or beyond. Loaded draft, mediocre draft, bad draft, it doesn't matter -- there's not much value in a pick in the 20s. You can buy one of those for cash whenever you want.

There's also the issue that if you're rebuilding, you shouldn't want proven players. The name of the game, if you're trying to build a contender, is upside and cap flexibility -- not finding your way back into consistent 40-win mediocrity.

It's called rationalizing. If you expect the hometown newspaper of a team to be an objective judge, you're an idiot. They're cheerleaders. Go read any newspaper in Los Angeles... they've convinced themselves that the franchise is better off without Howard and that LeBron is coming next summer. Is that the truth, or are they in denial?

Yes, if you compare the Magic haul to the Lakers ending up with nothing, it's a good move. That isn't the choice they had, though, so it's a disingenuous analogy by the columnist. The comparison is the Magic haul compared to the trade package from the Rockets (or another team). Of the "five future picks", two are second rounders, one is a first rounder in the 20s, and the others won't be seen until 2016 and 2017. The "consummate pro" has a large contract and a PER of 13. And sorry, while Vucevic and Harkless might be decent role players, neither has even an outside chance to become a star, and I'd expect a bit more than that if I was dealing one of the top five players in basketball.

 

He looks like McHale and Morey combined.

 

I have to strongly disagree with you there bro. Both have a chance to be allstars. They only have 1-2 yrs in the league and i think Harkless is only 20.


Vucevic is an absolute beast. A legit 7 footer who averaged 13 and 12 last year. That's better than another guy we kind of like, named Omer Asik. Indeed a head-scratcher why you would say Vucevic will never be an allstar when he's close to being one already. He goes 15/12 next year and he's about there.

Harkless is an athletic freak who just turned 20 in May. He also got much better towards the end of the season. Way too early to know how good he can be.

 

Nope it's exactly the choice they had. Everybody knows Dwight was gone. Well, they could have ended up with Bynum or Iguodala, but both of those players are gone too. The Magic made the best of a bad situation. Dwight could have also been gone the previous year and they would have got nothing if they didn't guilt him into signing the option.

 

No, they did not. They had an offer on the table from Houston including a guaranteed lottery pick, at least one of Lamb/Jones, an even better "proven player" in Kevin Martin, more future picks/prospects and immediate cap relief.

They were never going to take Bynum or Igoudala. The comparison is the deal they got here to the one on the table from Houston.

 

All-Star? I'll give you 20-1 odds (and put down $1,000) on Harkless ever becoming an All-Star. Dead serious. The guy was the 15th pick in a mediocre draft, and as a rookie went out and averaged 8 ppg and a PER of 12 on a bad team. The only way you could give him "star potential" is if you merely want to focus on his age. Under that same logic, I could say that Robert Covington is a future All-Star. It's too early to know otherwise, right?

(The bottom line is that it's almost like you're assuming All-Star talent until proven otherwise... and given the history of this league, it should go the other way. Most guys aren't going to be upper-tier talent, especially if they aren't drafted high, and Harkless has done very little to show otherwise.)

Vucevic got those numbers because someone had to. On a team that terrible, there are a lot of rebounds and shots to be had. His stats are equally inflated to Gortat's a year ago in Phoenix. That said, is Vucevic a serviceable big man? Of course. But the comparison to Asik is off-base. What makes Asik special is his incredible post defense and the things he does away from the ball. He's a defensive anchor, and the advanced stats reflect that. Vucevic, while solid, isn't that guy.

Orlando traded one of the top five players in basketball here. They didn't get a single young lottery prospect (Vucevic drafted 16, Harkless 15). They didn't get even a potential lottery pick until 2016. They didn't get a potential top 5 pick ever (protection). They didn't get any immediate cap relief. That is a god-awful, terrible trade.

 

The deal they took is way better than the one from Houston. Kevin Martin isn't at the right stage of his career for them at all and everybody else you mentioned could easily be a bust.

Vucevic and Harkless are tremendous young players and they also got a proven player in Afflalo.

 

Harkless is a tremendous young player? The guy was a non-lottery pick who averaged 8 points/game with a PER of 12! Can you please elaborate on what is tremendous about that? Jeremy Lamb was and is a better prospect.

Afflalo was 27 last season... Martin was 29. If you think there's a large gap in "stage of career" there, that seems a little silly. More importantly, Martin was an expiring contract. That's what was so hideously bad about the Dwight trade. The most valuable currency to rebuild a franchise is future lottery picks (i.e. not in the 20s) and cap flexibility.

The Magic somehow managed to trade one of the top five players in the NBA and got neither for at least three years. As opposed to the Houston trade, which offered them at least one guaranteed lottery pick (in addition to other future picks), a similarly-proven veteran SG, a young prospect superior to Harkless and immediate cap relief.

 

Just a few names for kicks:
Kenneth Faried - 22nd pick
George Hill - 21st pick
Parsons - 2nd round
LOL! According to you, first rounders don't mean jack unless they lotto picks.
Meanwhile, Lamb, White, Jones, all top 20 picks. They aren't exactly burning up the league, are they?

Throw away his rookie and last year's stat, Afflalo shoot at or above 40% with good margin on 3's and has a 44-50 fg %. That's what Orlando was getting. Would you have predicted he would shoot 30% on 3's last year. I don't think so. Hindsight is 20/20. Put Parsons in there as first option and his stat is gonna go down too. Afflalo started for a very good George Karl team. Most analysts thought Afflalo is a damn good player who plays both end of the floor. And he's only 27.

Vucevic pulled in 12 boards, put up 13 points and have only 1.8 TO; all better than Asik and still on a rookie contract.

Mo Hackless posted13.4 points, 5.3 rebounds, 1.6 steals after all-star break while played some strong on-ball defense. Did you see him play?

LOL! Every local outlets are homies and not credible. Doesn't that make you and CF the same? Ok, so what was the better deal for Orlando?

Still waiting to see you elaborate on your statement "It's pretty clear Hennigan chose the deal he did for reasons other than what was best for the Magic on the floor". Could it be not the best "on the floor" now but more for the future of the franchise?

 

Lamb/White/Jones + Martin (was he really on the table?) are not better than Vucevic, Afflalo, Hackless. Not even close. I'll take 3 first round picks and 2 second round picks over 1 lotto pick any day, unless it's Andrew Wiggin which it won't be.

 

Hackless put up 13.4 points, 5.3 rebounds, 1.6 steals after all-star break and played good D. PER doesn't tell you everything sometimes.

It's not like he got the stats from playing his teammates in scrimmage. He played against the same NBA teams every other teams played. 12 boards in the NBA are 12 NBA boards, no less. So, for rebounds, outside of Asik, who do we have? When he was not on the floor, we were pretty bad. That's what Morey said. So Asik "had to" rebound, right? While Asik is a beast on defense, Vucevic has far better offensive game. I followed him when he was at USC, he has a jumper. Wish he were here, he'd be a better fit with Dwight, and much cheaper.

It was the best they could get.

 

LOL , get real. You never get equal value for trading a superstar. COnsidering that Orlando got plenty back.

Harkless came out early. If he stayed he would've been a sure lotto pick. WHo cares about the average, did you watch him play? Look at this stats when he actually got to play more than a couple minutes towards the end of the season. Ever heard of Paul George? Yea averaged 7 ppg his first year.

Vucevic numbers the product of being on a bad team? Makes absolutely no sense. IF they're terrible, it means the other team is making MORE shots!! SO there's actually less rebounds to go around. Maybe you're talking about offensive boards?? Ohh wait, freaking Magic shot 45% for the season, middle of the pack in the NBA! Charlotte is the worst team in the league, they missed the most shots, and their leading rebounder barely gets 7 a game.