We lost A LOT OF GAMES WITH HARDEN to many teams that SUCK and ocasionaly with their best players (sometimes several of them in the same time) missing.... we were also DESTROYED a couple of games WITH HARDEN...
Just to recap: I don't think we're having the same conversation. You said people used to say this about Yao when he went down to injury and the team went on a run (presumably 2007-08 when nearly half of the 22-game win streak was without Yao)... then Yao was done and the Rockets started missing playoffs year after year. That was a dishonest assessment of the roster then and when Yao left. T-Mac completely cratered, Artest left, Deke retired. When they said those things about Yao (which I didn't agree with), it was based on the improved defense Deke provided and the scoring slack picked up by other players. Yao was a damn good player and he was terrific in 2008-09... but unfortunately, it doesn't have a thing to do with what you said and my reply.
It's true that situation was different when 22 game win streak and when Yao left,but that was not the only time people brought up the "Rockets better without Yao" argument as I remember, so your assumption is not true. Over the years in Yao's Career, so many players(including Tmac) come and go, but Rockets kept winning 50+ games until Yao left. I don't think a Deke/Artest lead team would get Rockets 50+ wins. So I believe "Dishonest assessment" is an incorrect assessment from you. The main idea in both my posts is the last sentence in my 2nd post which you omitted: Over the course of 82 game season, missing Yao and missing Harde would have the same effect, that is a lot more losses and a low less wins. The Yao mention in my fist post is just an reminder for people who think Rockets would be better off without Harden, I'm not sure if you misread my true intention here.
Rockets didn't have a 50 win season until TMac's first year. The Rockets' last 50 win season was TMac's last somewhat meaningful year, and the year we had Artest.
Obviously I am referring to the Rockets' first 50 win season during Yao's career, but I just wanted to clarify.
I know that. Rockets also missed playoff the year when both Yao/Tmac had significant injury time. But I guess you still didn't get my point here: Yao/Harden (especially a non-dominant one in Yao's early career) doesn't guarantee 50 wins, but missing a dominant Yao/Harden caliber player over 82 game season for nothing will make that much less achievable.
05-06. The dreaded year. As much as I hate mcgrady he was a big reason for the rockets getting to 50 wins. Just him with the team is a pretty good record from what I remember. Just Yao (untill Artest came) was pretty bad. That isn't an honest assumption though, because as Clutch pointed out Deke was a very serviceable backup that helped out with the tmac run team.
Please let this thread die. I want to close the tab every time I see this on the first page. Just embarrassing.
I disagree. Lin is very valuable to this team. Just not next to Harden. Whenever Harden goes out, Linsanity all of sudden appears.
rockets are definitely not better without Harden. Harden is a top tier player, no question about it, he provides consistency and a go to player for the team when the chips are down, when plays are broken or at crunch time. i think what the last couple of games proved is that there needs to be more balance between iso ball and ball rotation where everyone gets involved, especially the bigs. it does not mean they are better without harden, but it does mean that the team has an identity and can thrive in situations without harden. once everyone realizes this and gains confidence from this (coaching staff and players included), i am sure harden will be quite glad to relinquish segments of the game to pure team ball and conserve his energy and be more effective at the end of games, and less predictable for the other teams to defend. this combination only makes the team so much better.
I don't get what you say. Aside from the last 2 games, Harden play every game and almost all the minutes. Lin play along side Harden all the time except being benched in the fourth. So how could Lin be valuable?
Maybe because Lin defers to Harden on his on accord. There have been times when Lin would try to pass to Harden and Harden would wave him off and walk away. There are a lot of times when Lin picks up his dribble too quickly and or give up the ball too soon. And there are time like against OKC when Lin has no issues. I think it's more of him trying to fit with Harden instead of him just playing his game. But with that said, the NBA is not like high school and college ball where good team play and ball movement can prevail over talent often. In the NBA playoffs talent usually prevails, that's why through the history of the NBA more times than not the teams with the best talent are the one's that compete for and win championships. Harden is a top player at his position and a top 5-10 player in the NBA and he's only 23 and he's proven himself in the playoffs. A talent like Harden is difficult to replace. Point Guards come a dime a dozen. The Rockets could replace Lin with Jarrett Jack (who comes off the bench and is having a better season than Lin) and be just as good if not better.
I don't think the Rockets are better without Harden. Harden is a top tier player and can dominate with an all floor game. He gives them consistency and is a go to guy when the chips are down, on broken plays, and in crunch time. The problem is that the coaches seem to rely on him too much that either his body breaks down or he loses gas at the end of games; and other teams focus their D on him. What the last couple of games did prove, however, was that the rest of the team can and did thrive in situations where he was not there. Teamwork and ball movement led to the 2 wins and proved that there were other ways to win aside from iso ball and riding the superstar for the full 48 mins. Now we take this new found confidence in the other players, in big man play, and confidence by the coaches in other players as well, and add Harden back to the mix. What you get is a more balanced offense, if and when the coaches decide to mix up iso ball with team ball, PNRs, and low post more evenly than in the past. This can only mean good things for them.
