1) PPat may be outperforming his true talent level. Personally I think that's likely. 2) PER barely measures defense at all. Millsap is a much better defender than Patterson
One of my key arguments is that he was only a rebounder and hustle player in college, but he has improved tremendously since the NBA. That's why he was ONLY a late 2nd round draft pick, but now at least in consideration for a near-star status. It is EXACTLY OPPOSITE OF THE ADAM MORRISON CASE (3rd pick, and bust). Millsap has rebounded very well for a PF in his NBA career, data's there, go look it up. You really have READING COMPREHENSION PROBLEM. Are you doing an essay on Paul Millsap at your primary school? And you're playing me just to get me to write it for you? Or writing a blog, and just need someone to get the data for you? If so, yeah, you win. I'm sure my signpost has moved somewhere in that post ...
Finally, somebody who knows what they're talking about. Yes, though truthfully I hope this is not the case. I want him to succeed just as much as I want every other Rocket to succeed. The irony may also be that the better Patterson plays, the more obtainable an actual elite PF like Aldridge becomes, since players of that caliber are only obtainable with trade fodder like Patterson playing out of their minds. Only if Patterson showed zero improvement or was having a bad year instead of a great year, could an argument for a player much further down the scale, like a Millsap, be honestly made. "Much better" is probably pushing it, since they both share the exact limitations on the defensive end in terms of size and athleticism. 2Pat's defensive presence is talked up a lot, but truthfully he may just be the Rockets' best PF defender among a group of not very good PF defenders.
I think 2pat is just getting better shots thanks to the guard play we have on the team. He's getting wide open looks and if he continues to get that he's going to continue to get good numbers on offense. As for Millsap...I've said it, for a rental he's fine. For anything else? Nah, he's not the long time answer. He's a 7 year player and history shows that these players likely just don't make another leap of development especially since he's been starting and has been given the keys to the car. We know what he can do. He's a banger who can step out and shoot. Can play tough defense as well. He's a starting NBA PF on most teams, and a borderline all-star player. In the end though Millsap is a really good starter/role player depending on what team you put him on. Jazz fans are ready to ship the guy out, it's not because he's a bad player...but they know his ceiling has been reached and they have young bigs that can be better than him with some development. We are going to feel the same away about Millsap and where the team is at now...I'd rather pad Patterson's stats and hope some team falls for the 'potential' he may or may not have as a 23 year old player.
To answer the original question of this thread... I would say no. Morey wants young foundation players (preferably two of them)... Milsap is a role player.
Do you realize that OremLK, the person you said know what he's talking about, actually agrees more with me than you, by the looks of his post. You're arguing Millsap is only a sidegrade vs 2Pat, based on Millsap's worst year and 2Pat's best year, and that's on 2Pat overplaying his talent. That doesn't mesh too well with the Millsap's ceiling is 2Pat argument too well. Hmm ... READING COMPREHENSION. Then you said 2Pat is just a trade fodder. Hmmm ... but Millsap turned down Jazz's extension offer of $25M over 3 years (which is Max that the Jazz could offer under the CBA). Hmm ... Then you argue that OremLK doesn't really know what he's talking about too well on 2Pat's defense. So you say OremLK knows what he's talking about, and he seems to disagree with you on both of his comments. Hmmmmm READING COMPREHENSION Maybe you really are a primary school kid ... or you just need to learn to internalize.
I'm going to sign off from here. And apologies for those viewing that interchange of posts. I don't have a problem with people who don't think we should go after Millsap. And I agree in an ideal situation, we go after someone better and get someone better before the cap space runs out when we need to start paying Parsons and Lin/Asik on their 2nd contract as well (assuming we keep the team together). Just that I doubt that is highly likely. So, feel free to keep the discussion and opinions coming. Very welcome. Help me learn more about my thoughts on Millsap also. But what I will not accept is someone coming in here twisting every single paragraph/argument that I wrote, in an aim to further his own viewpoints in a pretty much unrelated fashion to my original argument. I know I should've just let it go and let him embarrass himself on his own words, but I didn't. I'll start now. Stop me if I don't
Truly that irresponsible barrage of exasperated ad hominem attacks instead of useful discussion, peppered with dubious, unsupported PER and win shares talk, will only serve as inspiration to us all. *bald eagle shedding a single tear*
Milsap would be a major upgrade IMO; he's a guy I've liked for years and would be excited to see on this team. Getting Harden was huge... even though the kinks are still being worked out, he's a legit foundational player and we need to build around him, not gut the team to try to get another foundational player. I would much rather have one foundational player surrounded by above-average starters who are good fits and buy into the system than two foundational players surrounded by mediocrity (such as on the Yao/T-Mac teams). The Mavs just won a title with only one foundational player (Dirk), and the Spurs (Duncan), Lakers (Kobe), and Clutch City Rockets (Hakeem) did it with one clear foundational player and one or two strong second options (Parker/Ginobili, Pau/Bynum, late-career Drexler). Players like Lin, Asik, and Parsons definitely have a shot at improving enough to eventually be comparable to some of those strong second-option guys mentioned above. As far as Millsap... he's a hardnosed guy who plays good D, is a positive locker-room presence, hustles like crazy, and is super-efficient. He's in a shooting slump right now (and maybe struggling a little with Utah trying to phase Favors and Kanter into bigger roles at his expense), but over his career he's been one of the league's most dependable players. Lin-Harden-Parsons-Millsap-Asik... with Delfino/Jones/Smith as backups... add an upgrade at backup PG (maybe even just Machado with more experience), and I think that team has plenty of potential as it develops together. I also think there's a very big difference between that team with Millsap compared to Patterson. Millsap's D and rebounding is just way better IMO, and he's so much more aggressive and proactive. I think an upgrade at the 4 is necessary, but I like our other positions right now, and I definitely don't want to gut the team to get another "star" ... let's see how this exciting young core develops and improves over the next year or two.
What leapt out at me is that Patterson's past 6 games avg about 19.6pts and 5.3rebs. .83 ast, 1blk, .67 stl, 1.3 TO. Which is a marked improvement since the beginning of the season. Theoretically, since he's a young player (ie. TO's) playing with a young team (ie. lower assists), he can continue improving throughout the season and hopefully rebounding better. (Granted the other 4 starters are all above average rebounders for their positions so he might or might not either not put much effort into rebounding or the rebounds for his position gets snatched away.) At this point, esp with small sample size, what's to say that Patterson can or can't have roughly Millsap's stats during the months of February and March?
over the b****made Patterson, he is a huge upgrade. over the newly-found man Patterson? yeah he is a minimal upgrade
Just a few thoughts here. That was certainly a knock down fight between you all. No TKO's though, and everyone lives to fight another day. IMHO Millsap is the sixth or seventh best PF in the league. Love, Blake, TD, LMA, Bosh and probably Dirk are better. Would he be an improvement today? Yes. Next year? Probably. After that? Probably not. The 12-13 and 13-14 seasons are developmental seasons. The Rockets are not going to threaten to walk off with the title the next couple of years. So would we want the Rockets to hang their hat on a 27 year old PF with a large and long term contract? My vote is no. 2014 - 2015 IMHO is the target for the organization. And who knows? Three young power forwards. Someone could develop.
Is Anderson Varejao somebody Houston might try to trade for? A package of Patrick Patterson, either Terrence Jones or Donatas Motiejunas, one or more expiring contracts (e.g., Daequan Cook, Cole Aldrich, Carlos Delfino), and maybe Royce White for Varejao and filler might work for both teams. Oklahoma City does extremely well with a rebounding-defense frontcourt combo (Serge Ibaka-Kendrick Perkins) because it gets virtually all of its scoring from its perimeter players. Houston might be able to succeed with this same formula.
I agree with Hollinger that Millsap is probably the most underrated player in the league, I would be surprised if most people would even rank him in the top 30, but I consider him a top 20 player who could help us get to the finals at least. And as for the people who say "Millsap won't be enough", it's not like getting Millsap would lessen our chances of trading for Kevin Love or Aldridge or any other star who might end up on the trading block. If anything, Millsap helps our chances because we have an extra asset to trade with.
And for whatever it's worth, Millsap has always ranked very high in RAPM which further suggests he's one of those players who's worth goes beyond what you see on the stat sheet: 2013: http://talkingpracticeblog.com/ 2012: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2012.html 2011: http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/ratings/2011.html
