When I am in residency, I'll have a real job and will not be posting on a Basketball BBS defending my world view. Hard to believe someone who claims to make $500,000 to $1,000,000 annually would be here. Your move tinywang, I mean MFW. It is even harder to believe someone who makes even $30,000 couldn't donate to the tip jar. Finally, I am not Indian.
If you're reading a liberal, pro-democracy publication, which covers up over India's faults to promote a rivalry with China in the true British tradition of divide and conquer, then yes, India is doing fine :grin: Actually, I have no qualms with India doing fine. It is my wish that India does fine. I also hope that India, together with China, will eventually overtake the US economy and lead the world properly. The US has had its day in the sun and has been found.... wanting :grin:
Not sure all of them, but some certainly are, at least several posters who explicitly said so in this thread. Just between you and me, don't let them hear, ok, keep this as a secret
Freedom is more than freedom of speech and the press. Society is far more complex than that. But Capitalism and freedom have generally gone hand-in-hand. Capitalism depends on freedom - the free movement of resources, capital, and people. And most importantly - ideas. Ideas are the seeds of economic growth. It's innovation. And it comes from the freedom for humans to think, express, and act. China won't ever be a leader until it allows for such freedom, it's growth is fueled by cheap labor, not innovation. it captures technology through taking it from others, it's a follower in that regards. You can not separate freedoms and ideas into politicial vs. religious vs. artistic vs. scientific. They are all integrated and play off on another. The greatest scientific minds were also great artists, great philosophers - they were great minds. Whether they have come from ancient China or ancient greece. Without a free exchange of ideas, much like without a free exchange of money, resources, or whatever - China's economic growth will be stymied.
Nicely put. You are right and I agree 100%. But you have to know that innovation is a very expensive activity. it is fuelled by enormous amount of resources from other sectors. The economic growth of china right now is heavily dependent on its cheap labour like you said and on foreign investment. China rewards foreign invest like no other in the world. For example, a foreign company setting up a factory plant in china gets like more than 60% off the land (based on market prices) in certain areas. The idea of foreign investment is so that innovation/technology is brought into the country without heavy investments as the plant and equipment will forever be in china, including chinese employees being trained by foreign professionals. The economic development that I was refering to is not one that will challenge countries like USA in terms of world leadership, but in terms of the average income of a general household and the general well being of the economy. You have to admit, China's growth has been tremendous. Think of China as USA 100 years ago. Back then, USA was not a technology based country unlike Germany...but rather using other sectors of the economy as a foundation to innovations. China right now is still at a stage of building up the foundation. Basically I agree with everything you said, but still China is not there yet. Form example, the starting income for a uni grad in Beijing is like 2000 RMB (approx $285 US) per month, its hard to attract skilled and talented personnel to start innovation. Also other areas are lower. Innovative experts require high incomes, general chinese companies can't afford it. My father is a pig breeding expert (in fact one of the best in China). he graduated from Sydney University (australia) and never considered moving to china cause the highest pay he was offered was around half million RMB per year (approx $71000 US). Only moved to China cause of a Holland company which set up farms in China and was paid significantly more. I am not saying there is no high paying jobs in China, but the average is really low. Top graduates tend to go overseas for higher income. Also the education environment is not the best in China. Average students don't have access to good computers or science labs. Shouldn't matters like these be solved first?
I find it extremely funny that the most vocal pro-PRC people are usually some guys living outside of China who are enjoying their freedom of speech in some places like America, and just as I thought, you know nothing about China, every freaking Chinese who is remotely interested in chinese politics, know what a 五毛黨 is, go to some China, Hong Kong or Taiwan forums and post your stability>everything BS there, guess what they will call you? And I lol at you using business background as a shield, I don't remember my Economics teacher teaching me freedom of speech is a hindrance to economic growth. Ok, let me ask you a serious question, since you are saying that social stability is the foundation for any growing economy, are you saying that under the name of stability, PRC prosecuting and killing citizens who dare to speak against it is the right thing to do?
India was a sham democracy - it was really a socialist dynasty led by Nehru and his daughter Indira Gandhi (not related to Mahatma). It was not until the 80's that the Congress party finally fell out of power and true democratic principles took hold including opening up the market and installing economic reforms. Since that time, India has grown incredibly rapidly consider it had a 30 year lag from China. That is for many reasons, including the fact that India is already heavily english speaking but also because it was a democracy and thus is was much much easier for foreign companies to do business there and for companies to do what they needed to do. India has a lot of poverty, and yes far more on the surface. Both countries have shown significant declines in poverty the past few decades, but it should be kept in mind that the World Bank Poverty line is flat for anation and doesn't consider that in China, soon nearly 56% of the population will live in major metros...so that's where the quality of life is really low. I do not think India's higher quality of living is simply because of "freedoms" being taken into account as usually that's only a small percentage of the score. I think environmental are huge, as well as purchasing power relative to the area one lives in. Again, economically, India started much later than China, but because of it's democratic foundation, India has been closing that gap. India's been at this at less than half the time China has been. 15 years ago India looked exactly the same as it did when I was there in 1980. The last time I went I hardly recognized the place. In 15 years India has undergone a drop in poverty from 60% to 40% and perhaps lower. I am not saying India is superior, I am only showing how a more open gov't can benefit a society in terms of economic growth. I really think China will struggle as a SuperPower if it continues to put a gag on the press and it's people.
Innovation comes from a people who are free to innovate - that's my point. I think China is ready. It's got a solid manufacturing base, and it has a need for innovation. The CCP isn't going to solve the difficult problems CHina faces...these kinds of problems take hundreds of people - sociologists, engineers, scientists, politicians, activists, and more. They all influence each other to solve problems like demographic shifts and how cultural trends impact directions in society. When you are not allowed to challenge what you think and explore, you can't innovate. It's not a question of expense, it's a question of freedom. If people have to work really hard just to survive, and when personal liberty is limited....so is personal happiness. And the reason people innovate is fundamentally to strive for something more. To gain greater freedom either through power, money, or expression. China is ready, it's been ready for a while. It's a stable nation. It's got a huge manufacturing base and plenty of technology. The gov't doesn't want to yield control because they are holding onto the reigns of power for themselves! Hey, it makes sense, why go the route of democracy and upset their control of what is going on. It's not that it would be good or bad for the PRC to have freedoms, it just would be bad for the CCP.
Wow How has India "india been at it half the time china has been"? Just a thought man. Modern china was established in late 1949...for the next 10 years, basically they were trying to stabilise the country and feed everyone. Mainly due to the Japan invasion and civil war which technically never really stopped since around 1900. There was a war in one place or another. anyway...China went through an economic reform in 1978. Its economic growth really did not start until the mid 1980s. before that, china was undergoing more agriculture development than economic, just trying to feed everyone. India was never stricken by all out war like china did. You have to understand that Japan implemented a burn all, loot all, kill all strategy. Also when KMD left china for taiwan, they literally took boat loads of gold and other precious artefacts. China was in heavy debt ever since the beginning of last century. So I would really have to disagree in terms of your comparison with India. Offcourse India is doing a great job. But I would have to argue that China is doing an even better one. Your statement in terms of 'gagging' the press is an exaggeration. What ever I say to you is pointless...I really recommend you that one day if you have the chance...please visit china to see for yourself. it is nothing compared to the USA i assure you that...but it is no where near as bad as you hear about. You have to acknowledge that there is a struggle between political view (democracy vs communism). I left China when I was about 6 years old and was educated overseas. Since I was a kid, everything you hear about communism is negative. There is not 1 positive thing that i remember from press or school regarding it. Guess you have to see for yourself to believe the job that China has done over the past 3 decades. No political structure is perfect. its which every one works the best for China. At least the communist part is doing the best job in China for the last 200 years or so. I believe that one day freedom of speech/voting rights etc will happen, but again now is not the time.
Finally you said something I can agree, to a certain extent. But innovation does not only link to political system, it's also related to tradition and culture. The declared free society of India did not come up with much creativeness, the rigid society of Japan, although it's called a democracy, has produced close to 20 nobel prize winners in science and technology. China's drawback is that everybody wants to copy each other to make a quick buck, nobody respects nobody's IP. It's in the stage of primary capitalism antway. China did make great strides in infrastructure and manufactural bases and pulled millions of people out of poverty. Never say never, though(I said it twice haha). Japan, and to a much less extent Korea, were once industrial copycats and were mocked by the Americans to the ground. Look at them now. Concrete steps instead of grandiose ideas do matter in the incubation of innovation.
