You need to compare the stats when they have similar teams. Van Gundy's teams in NY had garbage on offense. Look at their offensive ratings in Houston, when they had more similar players. About the same.
The problem is, the JVG Rockets were very different from Adelman's, except for Adelman's first season. (JVG had more of TMac and Yao; Adelman had better role players.) But we already went over that: habits and adjustment. Again, if you want to argue that Adelman just happened to get good players and JVG garbage, then we can't really discuss it. And there is also the question about how much the coach affect player acquisition. Adelman coached for 18 seasons with 4 different franchises and never got significantly worse than the league average, and about half the time much better than the league average. Pure luck?
I think they are both great NBA coaches, probably the best two coaches in recent memory without rings, but Adelman's system is more fun to watch. Adelman pushes for more risk-taking: gambling for steals, long passes to start a fast break, and crashing the offensive boards. JVG is more conservative: be the first one back on defense, more set plays on offense, better man defense.
Exactly. I mean, look at how all those players JVG was sticking on the end of the Rockets bench are tearing up the league now that he is not there to keep them down. Spanoulis, Nachbar, Novak, Lucas III, Ford, Braggs, Wilks, Barret, Knight, Bogans, Davis, Frahm, Graham, and Lampe; you could just get all of those guys together on a team and you would be a lock for the #1 seed. I think four of them are still playing in the NBA.
When JVG's contract was up, Morey wanted to bring him back. If JVG wasn't so wishy-washy about the prospect of re-upping in Houston, he'd still be the coach here likely. Adelman was Morey's first coaching hire since taking over. So you're telling me that Les skipped Morey's opinions and went after coaches he wanted? I find that hard to believe. But if you can provide proof, I'd be happy to change my opinion. Why? How is money saved on a coach any different than shipping out a deadweight(SF3, Barry, Andersen, etc.)? Money is money. Don't give me that crap that it's Les' money and he throws it around like nothing. Les isn't Mark Cuban. There's a reason why Morey makes many fiscal-saving moves every year.
Hmm thats interesting... so are you implying that Morey changed his mind about wanting JVG back after his bout with indecision? Or is it really that hard to believe that Morey still wanted JVG back but it was Les who decided against it. Now i dont know if Les "skipped" Moreys opinions, but I'm guessing it likely he relied primarily on his own views in such matters, especially when he's work with said GM for more or less a year.
Oh, you're misinterpreting my argument. If you follow the the discussion back to last page, it's not really about whether Morey had the final say in retaining JVG or hiring Adelman. But rather, it's about the difference between your run of the mill coach over an established one. Carl Herrera's saying that because records are determined by players, that coaches are more or less interchangeable. So the question is, did Morey at the time wanted JVG and Adelman? Or using his supercomputers, he would've preferred a cheaper route? Say, hire Tibideou(sp?) instead at less than half the price?
Umm, he very clearly said he wanted somebody who was "more Phoenix-like" - that's on record. Look it up, I don't feel like doing it for you now it's too late. He didn't say "I want somebody who gives me more money for the dollar, please Daryl go work your magic." And of course...did the Rockets get "more Phoenix-like" the next year? Nope....the played the same style as ever, with the same result....just like Phoenix didn't get any less "Phoenix Like" when Alvin Gentry took over. Because there is a salary cap, and hence far more finite resources - for players and not coaches, making dollar maximization a way bigger deal, and because even the highest paid coaches barely get the equivalent of the MLE, which Les gladly throws away on stiffs like Brad Miller or Stromile Swift. The incremental cost of a high paid coach over a low paid one is the veteran minimum - Nothing suggests that - in the single coaching negotiation that Morey was not even a part of - that he was consulted with his "moneyball" tactics, or that htey even . This isn't Donald T. Sterling here. It's illogical for many reasons to suggest that Morey selected Adelman based on some ridiculous metric he had cooked up (especially given you claim that he said he wanted to keep JVG (who was fired a few days after or before he even assumed control)) it's basically not worth entertaining unless you can provide some evidence thereof. A more interesting question is if you can find a coach who produced a dramatically different result with the same players during the regular season by changing systems. Are there any in the modern era?
And not even remotely relevant in any rational sense. It's like saying Byron Scott was a greater coach than Phil Jackson in the early 2000's since he got to the finals and Phil didn't. And that's higher than Adelman was ever able to get with the same two main cogs and a far better supporting cast. End of discussion as to how much "better" on offense Adelman has made the Rockets.
Oh, I had read your discussion with carlherrara on the last page and only replied to the previous post because i found it sort of funny... Since the question you posed to Samfisher seemed to contain the answer within it. Regarding your discussion with Carl on the previous page, my assessment of it on the first reading as well as now was that you misinterpreted his point. While his argument was as well as misconstruing Dean Oliver's conclusion as somehow diametrically oppose to Moreys. Now I'm not sure what Dean Olivers viewpoint on the overall importance of coaches or what degree of difference they are responsible for, nor am I aware of Morey's view on Olivers argument that I am aware of, which CarlHerrera succinctly exposited here Since neither Oliver nor Carl Herrara nor Morey stated anything regarding their opinion on overall importance of coaches here, I fail to find how any of the three view to be oppose. Furthermore, the argument posed by Oliver was a narrow one and specificto the subject of the level of influence of "systems" vs "players" on offensive production. Which Carl extrapolated to coaches vs players as the primary determinant of offensive production. I could find noone arguing with you about the importance or effectiveness coaches overall or their value.
Hmm...Why am I not surprised that you keep limiting the sample size to a few years in order to twist the facts? I give you Adelman's 18 full seasons and JVG's 9 full seasons. You still have not answered the question. Is it pure luck that JVG had 9 straight years that his GMs from two different organizations gave him scrubs, and Adelman had 18 straight years that his GMs from 4 different franchises gave him great offensive talents? Or did the coaches in fact have something to do with what kind of rosters they had? I am beginning to smell that you are intentionally ignoring my points for which you have no answer, and trying to make what I said look bad by leaving out facts I presented. The two main cogs was fully healthy in JVG's 04/05 season with capable role players like Sura, Barry, and Mike James. Adelman never had the luxury of having the two main cogs playing full strength. This is a flawed requirement. First, it is almost impossible to find a real case like that. Rosters change every year. Even with the exact same group of players (which never happens), injury situations change. Opponent strengths and weaknesses change. Using one season to judge the ability of a coach is like judging a player's worth by a single season's stats. Second, why do you expect that a coach can just come in and turn around the same group of players? Why do you think players who fit JVG's system should work well with Adelman's system with no time to adjust?
JVG is a great coach but I think RA is better. *Plays young players. *Brilliant offense *No nonsense With that said JVG is a great coach. He worked with two oft-injured stars and nothing else. Morey in the JVG days and Im guessing we'd have some significant success. JVG was an excellent motivator. Got the most out of T-Mac. Excellent defense. Offense was just.. not very good. I think hes a better Doc Rivers.
Easy - I'm trying to sort out what incremental difference a coach makes on the offensive production of a given roster. Do you know the difference between a controlled variable and an independent variable? Because that's the only legitimate comparison here. Thus far the evidence is overwhelmingly nil. YOu are arguing that a coach shapes a roster. That is a completely different argument. To the extent whether you are asking if Van Gundy had full liberty in shaping the roster of the Knicks and Rockets - I can answer unequivocally that he had comparatively little input as opposed to "Coach GM" types based on a mountain of both direct and indirect evidence (e.g, neither team had draft picks due to pre-existing trades, JVG is on record saying he doesn't scout college players, the principal free agent acquisition of his time were Stromile Swift and Bonzi Wells, Frederic Weis etc, ad nauseum.) No...the reason why you look bad is because you don't want to admit that, for all Adelman's brilliant offensive skill, he is thus far unable to make an incremental difference in the Rockets offensive efficiency, even though he had an incrmentally superior set of tools. It's the truth. You can whine and complain and bring up the 1992 Trail Blazers all you want - but it's irrelevant, and it's the question that has hounded your days and nights for months. And what result would Adelman have gotten with this crew in McGrady's first year in Houston (IIRC - the team started horribly then rallied in January)? Are you suggesting he can make an incremental difference ? Because history shows definitively that he didn't in the past. This is not even remotely true, it happens all the time. That's why the saying is "You can't fire the players" The Rockets top 10 players' minute allocation in 2008 was virtually identical to 2007, save the huge upgrade of Scola for Howard. I don't expect it. You're the one who's arguing to the contrary.
Man who the hell cares about a "controlled variable" or "independent variable" lmao. When you use those terms, it normally means you've lost the debate
When you put those terms in parentheses, it normally means things are going over your head. LMAOSMHFMLPMS FTW!!!!11
They should go over anybody's head who actually watches the game and doesnt need these complex stats to measure who's better. Melo is better than Granger...No comparison
Totally OT: I wonder if it's such a "good idea" to simply apply the "watch the game" technique to managing complex, multi-hundred-million dollar operations such as the ones these basketball GMs are managing. I mean I guess it is no harm done when you are essentially sitting at a poker table with 30 other morons all "watching the game". It is a zero sum game after all. But what if you introduce a couple MIT grads with an MBA and a fetish for stats. I'm not so sure "watch the game" will work quite as well anymore, when the "game" just changed. Back on topic: ADELMAN DER FEHURER 4LIFE!!11 DAS BOOT!!!
Adelman has the better parts (talent/athleticism) to fit his system on both ends of the floor. Give Van Gundy this array of talent/athleticism and I find it hard to believe that he wouldn't use it. We'll never know.
Both are great coaches and Adelman wouldn't not have been as successful here if elements of JVG's reign hadn't helped this team during his run, especially the first season with the 22 game win streak. That being said, Adelman (or Morey) seem to be a better judge of offensive talent, because outside of defensive specialists like Hayes, Mutumbo and Battier, they chose guys that were either one dimensional or past their prime. One could say Adelman has had it better, but JVG obviously has had some say on who is drafted or signed so it isn't a 'Poor JVG' thing. Although, if you combine Adelman's offense with Van Gundy's defense, you'd have a multiple championship caliber team.
