Lieberman: "There is no humanitarian crisis in the Gaza Strip"

Read the following article. I found it remarkably insightful. Essentially when you are dealing with situations that are distant from your life, people tend to root for the underdog:

http://lesswrong.com/lw/8u/supporting_the_underdog_is_explained_by_hansons/

I've noticed that the sides are remarkably well divided in terms of who is perceived as the underdogs. People sympathizing with the Palestinians tend to view Palestinians as a unique and seperate group. People sympathizing with the Israelis tend to see the Palestinians as another shade a sea of Arabs, and view the Israelis as a small island in that big sea.

Of course, this doesn't apply to people who are "near" - people who have family, ethnic, or religious ties to either side. But seriously, beyond that I think you'll find estimations of who qualifies as the "underdog" makes a big difference in who people support. And in general, there are louder Muslim voices in Europe, and louder Jewish voices in America. I think these conditions color the starting point and account for the split on the subject between the USA and Europe, but I think in terms of events of the last 15 or so years, not a whole lot has tended to make Israelis look like underdogs. Sympathy for Israel was strongest in the 1950's and 1960's when events did make Israel appear more as underdogs.

There are also some outliers to this. For instance, some on the far left who are concerned with colonialism and romantic misconceptions of primitivism, they see Israel as bad hegemonic Western culture, invading and destroying natives, like the Europeans destroyed the Native Americans and took their land. For them, the "noble natives" will always occupy the position of underdog.

Conversely, people who have an out-sized fear of the threat that the "great Muslim hordes" to the West are similarly ideologically wedded to Israel.

But for the people who matter in the debate - the people whose mind is changable - the perception of the underdog is the important factor.

 

glynch
FranchiseBlade

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire/print

Israelis opened fire before boarding Gaza flotilla, say released activists

Survivors of the Israeli assault on a flotilla carrying relief supplies to Gaza returned to Greece and Turkey today, giving the first eyewitness accounts of the raid in which at least 10 people died.

Arriving at Istanbul's Ataturk airport with her one-year-old baby, Turkish activist Nilufer Cetin said Israeli troops opened fire before boarding the Turkish-flagged ferry Mavi Marmara, which was the scene of the worst clashes and all the fatalities. Israeli officials have said that the use of armed force began when its boarding party was attacked.

"It was extremely bad and very tough clashes took place. The Mavi Marmara is filled with blood," said Cetin, whose husband is the Mavi Marmara's chief engineer.

She told reporters that she and her child hid in the bathroom of their cabin during the confrontation. "The operation started immediately with firing. First it was warning shots, but when the Mavi Marmara wouldn't stop these warnings turned into an attack," she said.

"There were sound and smoke bombs and later they used gas bombs. Following the bombings they started to come on board from helicopters."

Cetin is among a handful of Turkish activists to be released; more than 300 remain in Israeli custody. She said she agreed to extradition from Israel after she was warned that conditions in jail would be too harsh for her child.

"I am one of the first passengers to be sent home, just because I have baby. When we arrived at the Israeli port of Ashdod we were met by the Israeli interior and foreign ministry officials and police; there were no soldiers. They asked me only a few questions. But they took everything – cameras, laptops, cellphones, personal belongings including our clothes," she said.

Kutlu Tiryaki was a captain of another vessel in the flotilla. "We continuously told them we did not have weapons, we came here to bring humanitarian help and not to fight," he said.

"The attack on the Mavi Marmara came in an instant: they attacked it with 12 or 13 attack boats and also with commandos from helicopters. We heard the gunshots over our portable radio handsets, which we used to communicate with the Mavi Marmara, because our ship communication system was disrupted. There were three or four helicopters also used in the attack. We were told by Mavi Marmara their crew and civilians were being shot at and windows and doors were being broken by Israelis."

Six Greek activists who returned to Athens accused Israeli commandos of using electric shocks during the raid.

Dimitris Gielalis, who had been aboard the Sfendoni, told reporters: "Suddenly from everywhere we saw inflatables coming at us, and within seconds fully equipped commandos came up on the boat. They came up and used plastic bullets, we had beatings, we had electric shocks, any method we can think of, they used."

Michalis Grigoropoulos, who was at the wheel of the Free Mediterranean, said: "We were in international waters. The Israelis acted like pirates, completely out of the normal way that they conduct nautical exercises, and seized our ship. They took us hostage, pointing guns at our heads; they descended from helicopters and fired tear gas and bullets. There was absolutely nothing we could do … Those who tried to resist forming a human ring on the bridge were given electric shocks."

Grigoropoulos, who insisted the ship was full of humanitarian aid bound for Gaza "and nothing more", said that, once detained, the human rights activists were not allowed to contact a lawyer or the Greek embassy in Tel Aviv. "They didn't let us go to the toilet, eat or drink water and throughout they videoed us. They confiscated everything, mobile phones, laptops, cameras and personal effects. They only allowed us to keep our papers."

Turkey said it was sending three ambulance planes to Israel to pick up 20 more Turkish activists injured in the operation.

Three Turkish Airlines planes were on standby, waiting to fly back other activists, the prime minister's office said.

 

Actually, it would have to be some imaginary neutral territory, maybe some native american reservation that gained independence, since the buses can't float on international waters.

As I already stated, the legality and jurisdiction has yet to be determined, as there are clauses in international law that allow the boarding of ships that try to run a blockade.

The 6th bus did try to defend against it, but they were playing with fire and got burned.

 

Not a coincidence. This board is a microcosm of what people in America and around the globe think of certain issues. In the last ten years, I've sensed a growing awareness and sensitivity amongst Americans to affairs in the Middle East and undoubtedly, Israel and Palestine are a huge part of that (also 9/11). I have a very diverse group of friends and conacts, ranging from the far-left to the evangelical right, who have slowly become pro-Palestinian. However, this is misleading since they're only "balancing" the disproportionate relationship that has existed between the US and Israel since '48. Most Europeans are aware of this yet they are branded anti-Israel/antisemitic for refusing to give Israel carte blanche.

Numerically-speaking, America has been +10 on the number line of balanced foreign relations with Israel when it should have hovered around the 0 mark. People here are now simply bringing that point closer to equilibrium and you intepret that as being "pro-Palestinian" which IMO isn't quite the same thing.

There's a sense of Israel losing touch with reality and being too arrogant when dealing with the Palestinian issue, and not realizing how unpopular it has become in the eyes of most countries excluding the US. As somebody on the subway said this morning, Israel is like the hot girl that starts fights with other guys and relies on her BF to defend her no matter the cost.

 

Those are good points but you cannot deny that public and international pressure brought by people like Ghandi did contribute to Britian pulling out of India. In this case though what pretty much everyone but radicals agree on isn't a total destruction of Israel and a withdrawl of all Jews to Europe but withdrawl from the West Bank and Gaza and allowing the Palestinians to establish a true state. Most Israelis themselves admit that the West Bank and Gaza aren't part of Israel.

The same though applies to Israel in regard to that it is surrounded by Arab countries nominally hostile to them while the Arab population of Israel / Palestine is outpacing the Jewish population. If numbers are the fulcrum then Jewish Israelis are on the short end of that.

"Patience" was in regard to once the peace negotiations began. I know the bloody history of the Brits in Northern Ireland very well having visited the site of Sunday Bloody Sunday and Bombay Street in Belfast. That said the Brits did show more restraint than the Israelis following the Good Friday peace negotiations as compared to the Israelis following the 1993 accords.

Its too early to say but if this situation does lead to greater international pressure on Israel and also further soul searching on the part of Israelis themselves it might. The Israelis I think in their hearts understand longterm occupation is a loser fo them which is why they withdrew from Lebanon, Gaza (even though they still make incursions) and much of the West Bank. Unfortunately they are also driven by fear to. As Rabin said they need a peace of the brave and if something like this can shame them to it then I think things might be more likely.

 

To what end though? They are facing more condemnation than they have in a long while, they've already alienated their best Muslim ally (Turkey) and are coming close to alienating their staunchest ally. If their meesage was to sow fear on the part of others from trying something like this another flotilla is being planned already.

 

What about just calling it the way I see it? I believe Israel has a right to exist and live in peace but I also believe that the Palestinians have a right to a land and live in peace. Both sides have done a lot to prevent that possibility and I don't see a moral superiority that can be claimed by either.

 

fair enough.

 

You are aware that there are still more Israelis in Israel/Palestine than Palestinians, right?

I think you need to do a little more research on Israeli opinions. Gaza does have great significance on the psyche of the Israelis. They view it as the ultimate failed experiment, and an indication that surrendering land has no benefits for Israel. It is seen as "proof" inside Israel that you can't trade land for peace - that the Palestinians will never be satisfied, and surrendering land will just give Palestinians better vantage points to attack the Israelis.

 

Unfortunately, I think that this fear is justified. They won't.

 

This is almost as vicious as Tupac's 'Hit Em Up' beatdown on Biggie


http://www.nationalturk.com/en/turk...demns-israel-over-aid-ship-massacre-625625475

 

Erdogan is a fanatical islamist, I hope the Turks will elect someone more reasonable in the next elections.

 

Since he has virtually no command over the Turkish military, it's all just bluster anyways. But ya gotta admit, it's some damn vicious bluster :grin:

 

Yeah, and it will make him even more popular in Turkey...I have a half German, half Turkish friend who lives in Istanbul - he loves the guy, especially for his rants against Israel.

 

I agree completely.

I was just noting, relative to the types of responses a thread like this might have gotten 5-10 years ago, it is decidedly more "pro-Palestinian"; not saying its wrong, or right, or otherwise, just pointing it out.

 

A politician's most important task while in office is always getting re-elected, just like Bibi plays to the far-right in Israel as well. The average Turk gets paid only slightly better than a Chinese sweatshop worker and that's if he/she can find work in the first place. But none of that matters b/c he'll vote Erdogan to save Gaza! :grin:

 

When most palest. are forced to leave and jewish people from all over the world are paid to live in Israel, yea thats likely to happen.

 

the military rules turkey, doesn't matter. And it is sad because Turkey was their closest ally when it came to islamic countries.

 

It matters, and the r****ds that were responsible for this operation should be put on a trial and not only for this of course. But it is not like Israel attacked a random vessel that just passed by.

This is legal in Gaza and even monitored by Hamas and illegal in Egypt, it is not the IDF responsibility to monitor those foreign border tunnels. The main idea of the blockage is not to let them starve, but to minimize any interaction they have with the Israeli population so the terror groups won't be able to attack soldiers nor civilians.

Prove what? Everyone knows about that.The tunnels appear in the media from time to time. When Hamas launched rocket attacks on Israel the IDF stated during the retaliation that it destroyed tunnels. The fact that the IDF stated that, proves that it didn't attack those tunnels before it has a reason to.

No, but you must understand that there are routes that allow food and merchandise to flow into the strip, and the main problem for the general population is that they don't have enough ways to earn money so they can't buy the food. The "blockade" is mainly about not letting the citizens of the strip enter Israel. In Rabin and Barak eras the Gaza strip economy was based upon thousands of Palestinians that got work visas in Israel, the main reason they are so poor now is the fact that they don't produce almost anything (short of weapons) in Gaza and neither Egypt nor Israel have enough commercial ties with them.

Furthermore, when there is a major powerful group that doesn't want to improve the situation and will use violence to prevent any progress, Israel will just renew the blockade every time because of the violence.
This is why I think our leaders are so bad. Since Rabin, no one had the courage to accept that there might be a need to progress under fire.

The IDF did not burn or kill people with phosphorus.It uses white phosphorous for light. Furthermore Israel is not signed on the CCW.

Which pattern?
The first soldier boarded the ship and was nearly beaten to death, so the others used their weapons.

It was irresponsible to board the ship while it was still in international waters, it was irresponsible to send the seals and not to board the ship by numbers from another ship. But the soldiers decision to open fire was obviously an act of self defence .

Before the blockade I still remember how in every week there were reports of collides between the Hamas or the Islamic Jihad and the IDF. We lost soldiers and many were injured. This blockade actually improved the situation greatly from our side. I don't remember when was the last time someone died from direct contact. The missiles are a new problem though.

Look, I understand your point and I agree that Israel must act to help improve the situation in there. But even if we let everything enter and exit the strip freely, it is going to be like sending food to a third world country. Tomorrow they will starve and die again.To really improve things in there, Gaza economy must be restored, and the best way to do so is by creating ties with Egypt and us. And this is problematic regarding the above section

The IDF had already failed in preventing the smuggling of light weapons into Gaza, also there are many light weapons and short range missiles factories in Gaza itself. The reason Israel is still trying to monitor the Gazan import is that it is afraid that Hizballa will send them long range missiles, like the ones that were used during the last war with Lebanon (and they already tried to do so before). Those missiles are too big to be smuggled from Egypt, and they can struck any city in the heart of Israel.

The cargo that was on the ships is getting to Gaza by trucks right now.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it was chosen by democratic election because it isn't corrupted and its' leaders used many of their resources to help the suffering population of Gaza (The PLO in Gaza were corrupted thieves and they were hated by the people).

I don't appreciate the way they are killing their political rivals and using violence against us, but I do think that they might be the only political force in Gaza that really cares for the general population. BTW I also think that there should be a direct political contact between Israel and Hamas.

Where did I ever stated that? All I am stating is that things are not as black and white as everyone likes them to be, and I believe that instead of helping those 1.5 million citizens, the world is concentrating on giving them a useless temporary relief . You can't feed a few hundred thousands unemployed workers for everyday of their lives by international charity. Also acting harshly against Israel will surely won't solve the problem.

Yep more than 20 people with metal rods and knives aren't a life threat . There are two videos of this incident presented in this thread, if you really don't think that the soldiers were fighting for survival you are really brainwashed by the other side. The first soldier didn't shot them first, they just attacked him brutally until he lost his consciousness and then, they threw him to the lower deck.Only after the following soldiers got down they stared to shot.