SLAM - We Got 50!

Has it been posted that they have Duncan at like 8 over dream as well? Fine Kobe and dream aren't comparable because of the position difference but by what dumb f$&k logic would duncan be better? Dream is a significantly better defender and a more skilled offensive force.

 

Oscar Robertson, Career Perspective

1960-61 Cincinnati Royals (33-46, Finished 4th in West - Missed Playoffs)
1961-62 Cincinnati Royals (43-37, Finished 2nd in West - Lost in 1st RND)
1962-63 Cincinnati Royals (42-38, Finished 3rd in West - Lost in 2nd RND)
1963-64 Cincinnati Royals (55-25, Finished 2nd in West - Lost in 2nd RND)
1964-65 Cincinnati Royals (48-32, Finished 2nd in West - Lost in 1st RND)
1965-66 Cincinnati Royals (45-35, Finished 3rd in West - Lost in 1st RND)
1966-67 Cincinnati Royals (39-42, Finished 3rd in West - Lost in 1st RND)
1967-68 Cincinnati Royals (39-43, Finished 5th in West - Missed Playoffs)
1968-69 Cincinnati Royals (41-41, Finished 5th in West - Missed Playoffs)
1969-70 Cincinnati Royals (36-46, Finished 5th in West - Missed Playoffs)

1970-71 Milwaukee Bucks (66-16, Finished 1st in Midwest - Won Finals)
1971-72 Milwaukee Bucks (63-19, Finished 1st in Midwest - Lost in 2nd RND)
1972-73 Milwaukee Bucks (60-22, Finished 1st in Midwest - Lost in 1st RND)
1973-74 Milwaukee Bucks (59-23, Finished 1st in Midwest - Lost Finals)


Now, I understand Robertson came from the "Racial Segregation Era". His biggest rival was Jerry West. But Robertson was far from the Top 5 (2009), or Top 3 (2003) - Slam Magazine Player Rankings.

Hall of Fame Inductices, Ranked by Assists

Magic Johnson: 19.5 - 7.2 - 11.2
John Stockton: 13.1 - 2.7 - 10.5
Oscar Robertson: 25.7 - 7.5 - 9.5

Isiah Thomas: 19.2 - 3.6 - 9.3
Bob Cousy: 18.4 - 5.2 - 7.5
Tiny Archibald: 18.8 - 2.3 - 7.4

Jerry West: 27.0 - 5.8 - 6.7
Lenny Wilkens: 16.5 - 4.7 - 6.7
Larry Bird: 24.3 - 10.0 - 6.3


So, I do not understand why Oscar Robertson is soo Overrated. He is not the "Jackie Robinson" of Professional Basketball. As an individual player, I'd take a handful of other athletes over Robertson. Chamberlain and Russell both had near 50" vertical leaps. I see nothing to suggest that Robertson is a "transcendental athlete"; even Scottie Pippen is a "transcendental athlete". Just think the "triple double" average is overstated.

 

We all know you cannot technically compare a SG with a center. But when you make a list of top 10 best in the history of the NBA, you do.

Everybody does it. All professional media does it. A top 10 list is a recognition of who accomplish the most in the NBA. And IMO, Kobe is on par with Hakeem, as much that hurts.

Kobe, for a significant amount of time, was considered to be the best player in the game in the 2000's. Hakeem was only considered only to be great what??? those 2 championship years? Hell he was the best at the game in 94 but at 95, he was All-NBA third team, with David Robinson and Shaq ranking higher.

And cmon, why do you think people, and i mean everyone keeps bring up Kobe in the same sentence as Jordan? Why?

When the topic of Jordan comes up, the name Magic and Bird shows up. Everyone professional critic starts saying can Kobe become better than michael. If kobe aint close to MJ, there wouldnt be an argument. BUt there is.

When I say Kobe is better than Hakeem, it's the same as Jordan being better than Hakeem, accomplishments alone. Okay??



But yeah, Kobe got it this year 4 chips> 2

 

Kobe wasn't even the best player on his team from 98 to 2004...he won 3 titles with Shaq winning 3 Finals MVP's. Kobe wasn't better than Duncan, since Duncan was able to carry a mediocre team to a title in 2003, while winning with 4 completely different teams overall. You can put Shaq and Duncan over anybody else in this decade in my opinion. Both were dominant til 2005 and won titles til 2007.

Kobe was the best player in the game from 05-06 to 06-07 seasons. He was putting up great #'s, won back to back scoring titles, and he played solid defense.

However, since then you can say Lebron has been the best player (has done a lot more with much less talent). Dwade had a spectacular season as well this year, so either one of them you could make the argument for.

Hell, even in 2003, Tmac and Kobe were compared quite closely.

Just like Hakeem, Kobe was the clear cut best player in the NBA for only 2 seasons. Hakeem was 2nd to Jordan in 93, and was still top 3 in 96 with Jordan and Shaq. So in terms of dominating the competition, both were similar.

Hakeem from 91 to 96 was in the top 3 along with Jordan and David Robinson or Shaq. From 88 to 90 Hakeem was in the top 5 with Jordan, Magic, Isiah Thomas, and CHarles Barkley.

Kobe from 2001 to 2005 was int he top 3 with Shaq and Duncan and from 2005 to 2009 he has been in the top 3 with Lebron and Dwade.

 

Slam Magazine Top 50, 2009

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Bill Russell
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Oscar Robertson
6. Magic Johnson
7. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
8. Tim Duncan
9. Larry Bird
10. Jerry West
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Hakeem Olajuwon
14. Bob Pettit
15. Julius Erving
16. Moses Malone
17. John Havlicek
18. Karl Malone
19. Isiah Thomas
20. Charles Barkley
21. Rick Barry
22. John Stockton
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Bob Cousy
25. David Robinson
26. Kevin McHale
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Jason Kidd
29. George Mikan
30. Kevin Garnett
31. Willis Reed
32. Wes Unseld
33. Nate Thurmond
34. Dolph Schayes
35. Walt Frazier
36. Patrick Ewing
37. Jerry Lucas
38. Gary Payton
39. Allen Iverson
40. Billy Cunningham
41. Clyde Drexler
42. LeBron James
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Dave Cowens
45. George Gervin
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Earl Monroe
48. Dennis Rodman
49. Walt Bellamy
50. Steve Nash

Slam Magazine Top 75, 2003

1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Bill Russell
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Kareem Abdul Jabbar
8. Jerry West
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Julius Erving
11. Elgin Baylor
12. Hakeem Olajuwon
13. Karl Malone
14. Bob Petitt
15. John Havlicek
16. Moses Malone
17. Isiah Thomas
18. John Stockton
19. Charles Barkley
20. Walt Frazier
21. Rick Barry
22. Bob Cousy
23. Elvin Hayes
24. Dave Cowens
25. George Gervin
26. Kevin McHale
27. Dominique Wilkins
28. Patrick Ewing
29. Willis Reed
30. Wes Unseld
31. George Mikan
32. Earl Monroe
33. Nate Thurmond
34. Dolph Schayes
35. Walt Bellamy
36. David Robinson
37. Billy cunningham
38. Paul Arizin
39. Dave DeBusschere
40. Alex English
41. Scottie Pippen
42. Nate Archibald
43. Adrian Dantley
44. Clyde Drexler
45. Bernard King
46. Bob McAdoo
47. Gary Payton
48. Artis Gilmore
49. Jerry Lucas
50. Pete Maravich
51. Hal Greer
52. Reggie Miller
53. Allen Iverson
54. Dan Issel
55. Tim Duncan
56. Robert Parish
57. James Worthy
58. Sam Jones
59. Kobe Bryant
60. Lenny Wilkens
61. Jason Kidd
62. Bob Lanier
63. Dennis Johnson
64. Chris Webber
65. Chris Mullin
66. Mark Aguirre
67. Connie Hawkins
68. Spencer Haywood
69. Dennis Rodman
70. Kevin Garnett
71. Dave Bing
72. Alonzo Mourning
73. Bill Walton
74. Grant Hill
75. Tracy McGrady

 

Both lists sucks...its a popularity contest with them.

How is Kareem #7 on both lists!!??? How was Julius Erving better than Olajuwon (NBA career) in the 03 list!??

How does Kobe go from 59 to 12 in 6 years, with 1 MVP, 1 Championship, 1 Finals MVP (1st of career) and 2 scoring titles? Not enough in 6 years to move up 47 spots in my opinion.

Definetily not worthy of moving ahead one of the most complete players and the most complete center/big man in Hakeem Olajuwon.

I also feel Pippen and Drexler were both underrated in this list.

I think Julius Erving for his NBA work is still too high on the both lists.

Magic and Kareem are both better than Oscar Robertson. Hard to argue against Bill Russell because of his 11 rings, BUT I think Shaq and Kareem were better centers with similar success, considering free agency and finals trips.

West and Bird are a toss up to me, can't go wrong with either. I wouldn't put Tim Duncan ahead of them, simply because his numbers haven't been "spectacular" outside of his 4 titles. I know winning is taken into account, but if you are ranking BEST PLAYERS, individual accomplishments have to be recognized. Bird and West had some historic seasons; Bird 3 straight MVP's

Dennis Rodman finally got some respect for being a winner/difference maker, and excellent defender and rebounder.

I think McHale is ranked a little high on new list, just based on #'s ( very poor rebounder for a power forward in the 80's).

Garnett is a tad bit underrated to me on the new list considering his #'s earlier on this decade.

You could also make a case for Wilkins and Gervin to move up. They didn't win any titles, but those were 2 great scorers in their respective eras. No way Dominique should drop from 27 to 43. No way Gervin should go from 25 to 45 either.

Also, there is no way Kidd goes from 61 to 28, AFTER his 2 most successful years. He did a magnificent job by taking a very mediocre team to 2 NBA Finals, but he shouldn't be 28.

To me, both of these lists have some major flaws...

 

Now that I have had more time to think about it, I would put Kobe on par with Dream and Duncan. This is considering everything including talent and career accomplishment.

I agree with Slam Mag.'s top 7, although the order could be different. But I would put Larrry Bird at 8, Hakeem at 9, and Kobe at 10.

Then Duncan at 11 and Jerry West at 12.

I just believe that Kobe is a better player than Jerry West now and there is no argument about it.

 

Shaq #4??? You've gotta be kidding me...

 

All-Time Scoring List

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 38,387
2. Karl Malone, 36,928
3. Michael Jordan, 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain, 31,419
5. Julius Erving, 30,026*
6. Moses Malone, 29,580*
7. Shaquille O'Neal, 27,604
8. Dan Issel, 27,482*
9. Elvin Hayes, 27,313
10. Hakeem Olajuwon, 26,946
11. Oscar Robertson, 26,710
12. Dominique Wilkins, 26,668
13. George Gervin, 26,595*
14. John Havlicek, 26,395
15. Alex English, 25,613
16. Rick Barry, 25,279*
17. Reggie Miller, 25,279
18. Jerry West, 25,192
19. Artis Gilmore, 24,941*
20. Patrick Ewing, 24,815
21. Allen Iverson, 23,983
22. Kobe Bryant, 23,820

All-Time Playoffs

1. Michael Jordan, 5,987
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, 5,762
3. Shaquille O'Neal, 5,119
4. Karl Malone, 4,761
5. Julius Erving, 4,580
6. Jerry West, 4,457
7. Kobe Bryant, 4,381
8. Larry Bird, 3,897
9. John Havlicek, 3,776
10. Hakeem Olajuwon, 3,755
11. Magic Johnson, 3,701
12. Tim Duncan, 3,669
13. Scottie Pippen, 3,642

With One Team

1. Karl Malone, Jazz 36,374
2. Michael Jordan, Bulls 29,277
3. Hakeem Olajuwon, Rockets 26,511
4. John Havlicek, Celtics 26,395
5. Reggie Miller, Pacers 25,279
6. Jerry West, Lakers 25,192
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Lakers 24,176
8. Kobe Bryant, Lakers 23,820
9. Patrick Ewing, Knicks 23,665
10. George Gervin, Spurs 23,602
11. Dominique Wilkins, Hawks 23,292
12. Elgin Baylor, Lakers 23,149
13. Oscar Robertson, Kings (Royals) 22,009
14. Larry Bird Celtics, 21,791
15. Alex English, Nuggets 21,645
16. Hal Greer, Sixers (Nationals) 21,586

 

I don't understand what you're trying to say. All I know is Shaq better than Magic? Okay what kind of bud are they smoking up down at Slam?

 

Yeah you got me buddy. I got nothing. I lose that debate. I don't like Kobe anyways so I don't even know why I'm going all these lengths to prove you wrong.
I do know that Shaq aint better than Magic.

 

Oh your such a dildo.

 

I think Hakeem belongs somewhere in the #7-#15 range on the all-time list depending on the criteria. Any higher and we're discounting superstars who won a lot of rings and played in the earlier years, and any lower and we're just not respecting the great player he was.

For those who think Hakeem is far and away better, Kobe has 6 finals appearances and four rings. He's led the league in scoring a few times and really locks in at both ends. He's been the most dominant offensive player in the league for a few years although I think he will jump the shark now. Putting him one spot ahead of dream is not all that bad. Kobe can do some amazing things, too.

The tricky part about Hakeem's career is that he was downright unbelievable for about 5 years, superstar scary for another 5 years, and an all-star for another 3-4. Let's ignore the 3-4 years where he wasn't playing at an all-star level. I think his best 5 years put him in a top 10, but given his career as a whole I think #13 is not a travesty. You just have to recognize the players who won more playoff games and put up great numbers, although they may not have had a style quite as unique as Hakeem's.

 

9 times out of 10, a center is going to be a better choice over a wing scorer.

If you look at the top 20 to 30 players, the list is dominated by centers, especially when the championships come into play. It is much easier for a talented big to win than high scoring guards. Which is why I would take a player, like Hakeem over a player, like Kobe. If you had two similar teams with the only difference being between center (Dream) and shooting guard (Kobe). I believe the team with Hakeem would be much more successful.

I think Kobe is great, but he doesn't effect the game, the way other great wings, like MJ, Magic, and Bird did. They were all superior passes and knew how to run an offense much better, as they could pretty much play PG, SG, SF, and PF (MJ actually did it on occassion). Kobe is pretty much strictly a shooting guard, or a scoring wing, I wouldn't dare let him play point guard or become a facilitator.

 

I agree with you about Shaq, BUT Shaq was more DOMINATING. From 96 to 2004, very rarely would you see Shaq with a bad game, where he wasn't dominating. I mean, people forget how great Shaq really was.

Magic was the most versatile player ever. By far much more fun to watch, and won more than Shaq. He however, wasn't the best player on his team until 84-85 maybe. Kareem was still the focal point until then. By 87, Magic was the man in the NBA along with MJ. Bird had started to decline slightly, but Magic and Jordan were the cream of the crop by 87 no doubt.

I think Magic having to retire in 91 also hurt him. He had another good 3 years left in him if he wanted to play that long IMO. He was playing decently in 96 when he came back after 5 years and gaining 50 lbs.

I think had he played those years, that would've added to his greatness, and who knows maybe another title if he got some better help around him. Same goes with Bird having to retire due to injury. Both guys only played 12-13 seasons.

But I do agree Magic > Shaq, but not by much.

 

Kobe had more MVP votes than Shaq since 2003. He's the true leader of that Lakers since 2003 no matter what Media said. A true leader doesn't heal company injury in company time.

 

This was before Kobe won it all. Now Kobe will crack top 10, easily.
BTW, I think Big O is overrated. He's not as dominant as Wilt and he
didn't have much playoff success. When you talk about greatest of all time,
you have to have both.