Well in that case, Hakeem has the complete offensive game from a center. Many people have said that the ONLY person with better footwork than Dream was Michael Jordan. I don't even think its debatable that Hakeem is the better player than Kobe. I just don't see Kobe getting out of the 1st round with the cast Dream had in 94...also in a MUCH more physical league. Like I said before, Kobe is a great player, and will be remembered as one of the most PROLIFIC SCORERS EVER. But I don't think he does anything else that great to put him above some of the guys in front of him. Michael did everything from scoring at will, to playing lockdown defense, rebounding, getting steals, blocks, and getting to the free throw line at will. Magic is probably the most versatile player ever at 6'9, could play any position, could pass better than anybody, could post up, rebound and start the break on his own, could shoot 3's, and score at will. Kareem was just unstoppable. He anchored the middle as well as any big man. He also was a focal point of the offense for 17 years! He was also a great passer out of double teams, and if needed could score through a double team. Shaq and Wilt are similar, except that Wilt was the better defender. Both were great and willing passers even though they were dominant offensively. Both were unguardable...changed the way the game was played. Bird did everything as well. He scored whenever and however he wanted to. Could drive, post up, shoot the 3, and facilitate the offense. Was a great passer, a great rebounder, and a scrappy defender who got a lot of steals and simply outsmarted anybody he played against, since he was no stellar athlete by any means. Bill Russell is not here because of offense, but defensively may be the greatest ever. By far the greatest winner. 11 rings, enough said. Oscar Robertson was similar to Magic in how versatile he was. He averaged a triple double for a season and was a great rebounder. Hakeem Olajuwon is by far the most versatile big man ever. He could shoot jumpers, he could post you up, cross you over, shoot fadeaways, and dream shake you. He blocked shots at an amazing rate. He got more steals than most guards. A good passer and terrific rebounder as well. Had almost no weaknesses in his game. Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time. Cannot stop him in the post, can shoot the jumper, can run a break. An excellent passer, a great defender. Also led 3 very different cast of players to 4 titles. Jerry West is the logo and Mr. Clutch. Only MJ is comparable to some of the performances this guy put up. Won an NBA Finals MVP even though his team lost. Could score in a variety of ways and didn't have the 3 pt line in his days. Was also a good defender and a great play maker. Also a great rebounder for a guard. What does Kobe Bryant bring to the table that these guys haven't?? He could be a better 3 point shooter than most (not Bird), but thats about all I see. He's a good playmaker, but not like some of the guys I mentioned before. He's a good defender, but Dream, RUssell, Jordan, Duncan, SHaq, and WIlt did that for almost their entire careers, not just 3 or 4 years. He's an average rebounder for a wing player, especially when you consider Jordan, Bird, Oscar, West and Magic. I didn't even mention Elgin Baylor in the list simply because I don't know much about him, but he might be another one thats better. As far as scoring goes, Kobe is up there with MJ, West, Bird, Baylor, and Oscar. Wilt, Shaq and Kareem are by themselves in a dominant class, but for wing players who weren't "unguardable or dominant like a big man", I would put Kobe as a top 5. He would be a top 10 scorer of all time with others like Gervin, Erving, and Drexler as well. BUT there is a HUGE difference between being a great scorer and a great player. Kobe is a great scorer, no doubt about it. But he isn't a great player, and at 30 years old, he's not gonna improve on defense, rebounding, steals, or blocks. He has become a better playmaker, but still not like some of the greats. Kobe will always be remembered as one of the greatest scorers, not a GOAT type of player. He would be top 20 in that department, which isn't bad at all.
I think this may prove to be true over time. Great pure scorer, but not not particularly special as far as rebounding or creating plays for his teammates is concerned. Strong defender when he wants to be, but never gives full effort night in and night out to defense.
Kobe is a great player, but more because he is a great scorer than anything else. His stats for rebounding, steals, blocks, and his playmaking and consistent defense isn't strong enough to make him a Top 10 player of all time. He is a top 10 NBA scorer of all time (Players recognized for scoring more than anything else) Kareem Wilt Shaq Jordan West Bird Baylor Oscar Robertson Kobe Lebron Gervin Karl Malone Dominique Wilkins Adrian Dantley Carmello Anthony David Robinson Hakeem Olajuwon English Dwayne Wade Mitch Richmond Allen Iverson Clyde Drexler Erving Tracy McGrady Ray Allen Paul Pierce Vince Carter Reggie Miller I think he will move up as a scorer if he gets to 30,000 points, which is a very strong possibility. A little over 7,000 points in the next 5 years if he is healthy is possible. I honestly think what will hold him back as a great player is the amount of help he had. He's never won without a lot of help. When he didn't have much help, he couldn't get them out of the 1st round. Hakeem, Jordan, Lebron, Duncan, Wilt, Kareem, Big O, etc. have all done MUCH better with very little help. Magic, Bird, Kareem, Shaq, West, Baylor, Duncan etc. Usually had great teams around them. But you know what? They were almost always in the finals when they had the help. Kobe actually managed to lose a 3 or 4 years with Shaq in his prime, a lot of that blame goes to Kobe for not playing smart (Detroit 04). Kobe is a hell of a scorer, and thats what he will always be remembered for. He will also be remembered as a top 5 player of the 2000's along with Tim Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, and Chris Paul. But he will not be a GOAT type of player...that is all I'm saying. He hasn't done enough outside of scoring to do that. *3 titles with Shaq winning 3 NBA Finals MVP's. If he wins more titles, he'll move up, but I still dont think he'll ever be higher than Tim Duncan or Hakeem IMHO.
Once Kobe got this ring, no way West stays in front of him. Mr. Clutch lost what, 7 finals? With only final MVP coming from a losing series and the only ring he's not da man. Kobe's achieved more than that. Yes, Kobe's in top 10 all time with one more win.
And big O had some nice numbers but how many rings and MVP he won? By today's standard, success is measured by wins, not individual numbers.
Kobe is easily a top 5 best scorer of all time. Maybe even in top 3. The only better scorers than him are Wilt and Jordan. You can argue about Jerry West and Elgin Baylor being equals. Wilt Jordan Kobe West Baylor Isn't scoring the main point of basketball? If so then don't you think that a top 3 scorer in the history should be in the top 10 of all time. Tell me what is more important in the game of basketball: Scoring or rebounding or blocking shots or assists?
Basketball is a team game, without team success, personal achievement can only go so far. Wilt should be GOAT over MJ by your standard. Nobody as an individual was ever as dominant as Wilt.
! ! ! You nailed it. Even comparing position by position it was a different world when Lew Alcindor took Wilt's crown off, 40 years ago. Dream was special, one of the Top 5 5s of all time, by any era's criteria. Dream was better than MJ for a while in the 90s. MJ, Magic, Bird all dominated from different parts of the floor, differently. They are hard to quantify - ok, M is #1. But Magic is his only competition. Except for the Big O. And, oh, there's The Logo. These guys were grrrrrreat. Comparisons are silly. Me? I would take Dream #1 over all 5s who have been on the court against him. Me? I would take Kobe #2 over all 2s who have been on the court against him. '96, a great year not to be Robert Horry. He was the only guy not hurt, and in lieu of carrying the team he totally disappeared. That was what 'forced' the Barkley trade. Sammy and Dream had some on-court issues, sure, but the net effects of the trade were: Barkley/Willis/Price - BSB/Sammy/Chuckie/Bryant. A pretty darn good deal IMHO if, always an if, Price had not blown out that knee. He was finally looking good by that January eve. It should have been Dream v MJ in '97. It should a been.
Everything is important in basketball. However very few could do everything on the court. Jordan Bird, Dream, Magic, Big 0, Baylor, Wilt, Shaq, Kareem, West, Duncan and I'll even throw Lebron in here. Those guys could do everything on the basketball court (except shoot 3's for big men). They were so versatile when they played. Kobe is a great scorer. He wasn't more dominant in scoring than Kareem, Wilt, Jordan, Shaq, Baylor, or West. So now way he's a top 3, maybe not top 5. I still say top 10. He's a better scorer than Gervin and Barry, which is saying a lot. I think the 81 points help out a lot, but that was such a small stretch of his career that he was scoring like crazy. From 05-06 season to 06-07 season, Kobe was the best scorer in the NBA easily. But the guys I listed before were dominant in scoring throughout their entire careers. I mean, Tracy McGrady was easily the best scorer in the league from 02-04, same with Allen Iverson from 99-02. Arenas was great a couple of years ago in scoring. Bernard King had a couple of great years, same with Wilkins, English, McAdoo, Archilbald, World B. Free, Kiki Vandewhegh, and Mark Aguire. What separates Shaq from Hakeem and Robinson? His dominant scoring for much longer. Olajuwon had about a 4 year stretch (92-96) that was amazing, but before that he wasn't dominant and after that he aged. Robinson from 92-96 was also a great scorer, but that was it for him also. Those guys were all great scorers, but they all had 2-4 year stretches where they were GREAT scorers. After that, they weren't the same. Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, West, and Baylor were consistent for MUCH longer as DOMINANT scorers. Kobe had about a 2 year stretch where he was DOMINANT, Mr. 81. He was a great scorer in those 2 years, almost unstoppable. It was a great run, but he didn't do it long enough. He is still scoring well after that stretch, and can still put up the big #'s, that is why I give him the top 10 in scorer recognition. However, his years with Shaq came with a lot of easy points. I know its not his fault, but its still going to effect how he is remembered. Great scorer, top 10 scorer of all time in my opinion...he's in good company.
Is this a serious question? I know its going to be painful for you but you should go and re-watch last year's Finals for this answer. Kobe's and the Laker's scoring was shut down and they were embarrassed by the Celtics. Kobe is a great scorer but his other parts of the game aren't dominant enough to carry his team through series victories. Example #2. Finals against Detroit where Tayshan Prince locked him down. Kobe didn't help the Lakers with his scoring and kept forcing shots. His other parts of the game did not help the Lakers. Lakers are fortunate that Garnett was hurt this playoffs or else they would have suffered the same fate as last year.
Yes, and you can look at lots of other championship teams and find the same thing. The Spurs definitely did not win because of their scoring. Nor did the bad boy Pistons, or even the baby bad boys. There have been individual players who were capable of changing the character of a game, or a series, with other contributions. Russell's defense is an easy example. Wes Unseld's rebounding, outlet passing, and overall meanness. Dennis Rodman could take over games with defense and energy, and he basically beat the Sonics singlehandedly by getting so far inside Sean Kemp's head that Kemp could do nothing. On the other hand, time and again there have been teams that have put together a bunch of scorers and gone nowhere. It really is a team game, even though Stern has tried to turn it into a single rock star with a bunch of backing musicians (and with the help of ESPN he's almost succeeded).
I laugh at all of you selecting the Oscar Robertson over the Hakeem Olajuwon. This is the Big O(verrated): http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2233558/7050535
Hard to argue against a guy who averaged a triple double. One of the most complete players ever to play in the NBA. He isn't overrated individually.
I think anyone in the NBA would tell you that it is much harder to find a center such as Hakeem. He played on both ends and did it well not to mention his ball handling skills also. Just ask David Robinson who is a true center. If you were to build a team and you know anything about basketball you would take a center and build inside out not visa verse. That is what we are trying to accomplish now with Yao if only he can stay healthy. If he can stay healthy there is no doubt we should win a championship because of the pieces around him now as well. . <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hW4uXlRGAF0&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hW4uXlRGAF0&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
