http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2009/news/story?id=4249626 Kareem calls out Howard for play ORLANDO, Fla. -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar doesn't see much future for Dwight Howard in all those rim-rocking dunks and power moves from the Orlando Magic center. The NBA's career scoring leader would like to see Howard not rely so much on his size and athleticism and make himself a player his team can turn to when it counts. Maybe even throw in a skyhook or two. "He's still offensively kind of raw," Abdul-Jabbar said Wednesday. "He doesn't have a go-to move yet. Right now, he's kind of predictable." Dwight Howard Dwight Howard #12 C Orlando Magic 2009 STATS * GM79 * PPG20.6 * RPG13.8 * APG1.4 * FG%.572 * FT%.594 The NBA Finals have shown that Howard has a long way to go to be the dominant offensive center the Lakers' Hall of Famer was. The Magic trail Los Angeles 2-1, with Game 4 on Thursday night. So far, Howard's Superman act has mostly been grounded. "Kareem is right, and he understands that in order to be a good player you have to add different things to your game," Howard said. "I've tried to do the skyhook just like him, but he had more range and more touch. He was shooting skyhooks from the 3-point line, and I'm still working on it from the paint, so I've got a long way to go." The Lakers have tested the 23-year-old Howard's skills perhaps more than any team in the playoffs and exposed Howard's still developing fundamentals. They've harassed him with double-teams, surrounded him with 7-footers and shrunk his passing lanes. The constant different looks have eased the pressure on the Lakers' frontcourt. "So far, it hasn't been all that bad," Lakers forward Pau Gasol said about guarding Howard. The Magic big man has averaged 16.6 points per game in the series, made just 11 shots from the field and even fewer dunks. That's down from his 20.9 points in the regular season. 2009 NBA Finals Want an in-depth look at the Lakers-Magic series? Check out all the stats, analysis and opinion here: • Lakers-Magic page If not for Orlando's shooting a finals record 62.5 percent from the field in its Game 3 win, the pressure would have elevated even more on Howard, who jumped straight from his Atlanta high school to the No. 1 overall pick in the NBA. Howard is working to improve his offensive skills. He often spends nights at the Magic's practice facility with friends, shooting hooks and as many as 300 free throws with music blaring at the highest decibels. As a kid, too, he used to emulate Abdul-Jabbar on the playground with the skyhook. The running hook, not quite the towering shot Abdul-Jabbar perfected, is a move Howard has begun to develop over his first five seasons in the NBA. If he can make it consistently, he said it would take his game to the level of the all-time greats. His teammates often laugh at criticism of Howard's offensive talents. After all, they say when you're nearly 7 feet, weigh more than 265 pounds with some of the broadest shoulders and leaping ability in the league, why shouldn't you just dunk? That off-the-charts athleticism has been showcased in the last two All-Star dunk contests, when he's donned Superman regalia and soared seemingly above the backboard. "If I was that big, I wouldn't ever shoot a jump shot," Magic guard Courtney Lee joked. Working closely with Magic assistant coach and former New York Knicks center Patrick Ewing, Howard has said that he's still reaching his potential, often saying it's only around 20 percent. Only time will tell if that holds true. Abdul-Jabbar, who's currently working as a special assistant with the Lakers, agrees. If there's one thing he loves about Howard's game, it's his defense. Howard is the NBA defensive player of the year after leading the league in blocks and rebounds this season. Leading those two categories in the same season is something the Lakers great -- and only three others -- have accomplished. But Abdul-Jabbar is waiting for the offense to catch up. "Dwight is kind of limited offensively," he said. "He does great right under the basket, you force him to do other things, he doesn't have an answer for it yet. But I think that's his challenge." Probably the greatest center of all time (at worst #2 behind Wilt) even sees Howard for what he is RIGHT NOW. I'm not saying he can't get better, BUT after 5 years, you begin to wonder when will he ever learn? He has improved his fould shooting, but his post moves are awfully hard to watch, when we were used to watching Dream, Shaq, Tim Duncan, and Yao just to name a few. Do yall remember how David Robinson would often choke in the playoffs? He was a great big, strong athlete similar to Howard and even had a good mid range jumper. BUT he didn't really have a refined post game like Hakeem or Shaq. When the game slows down like it does in the playoffs, its MUCH harder to get by on pure strength and athleticism. You need skills and moves to score when you play better defenses for a 7 game series and more physical defenses. I would strongly suggest Dwight Howard to learn from DRob. Robinson was a GREAT regular season player. He only had to face great defensive centers like Shaq, Dream, Ewing, Mourning, and Deke for a handful of games every year. Everybody else, he could simply beat with strength and athleticism. He lost to Golden State in 1991 whose center was Alton Lister and Jim Peterson He lost to Phoenix in 1993 whose centers was Mark West and Oliver Miller He lost to Utah in 1994 whose centers were Felton Spencer and Tom Chambers He lost to Houston in 1995 where he was dismantled by Dream after recieving his MVP trophy against us. He lost to Utah once again in 1996 whose centers were Felton Spencer, Greg Ostertag, and Antoine Carr.
If Yao is stronger than Howard and move fast .I can make a conclusion that no one can stop Yao in the world...! Objectively speaking Yao is not a good physical player ! the only way to keep him in good healthy is to find a good sustitute for him !
Can you point out where Kareem said Howard has "no" post game, as you've been maintaining? He is raw. He is limited. He doesn't have a deep repertoire of moves. But he's still a more dangerous post player than the vast majority of players in the league. Otherwise, he wouldn't be receiving double teams routinely in this series with all the 3-point shooting around him, and he wouldn't be drawing all those fouls either. I mean, Luis Scola is praised for having an advanced post up game, but how often does he draw a double team? Actually, it should be easier for him to draw a double team because he doesn't have the same shooting around him that Dwight Howard has in Orlando. And your repeated suggestions that Howard hasn't improved in 5 years as an offensive threat is just completely off.
TrueHoop actually has a blog on Howard's post up game, and we get some insight from David Thorpe. He's a professional player skill development guy, years and years of experience with professional players, so people should seriously consider his input. http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-41-61/On-the-Notion-that-Dwight-Howard-Has-No-Post-Game.html [rquoter] On Tuesday evening, I settled into my media row seat next to David Thorpe for Game 3 of the NBA Finals. I always like to pick Thorpe's brain, so I asked him a question along the lines of "if you start your career looking like Dwight Howard, can you evolve to be a really efficient post scorer?" It was like Thorpe had been waiting for me. Immediatley he hit me with a hail of refutations. He challenged me to say why I thought Howard didn't have much of a post-game. The truth is that some of his moves end up looking a bit wooden. But let's be honest -- so do lots of big men. Thorpe made the point that every time Howard catches the ball against the Lakers, he's surrounded by two, three, or four players. One of them, Pau Gasol, is a master of taking the charge. When Howard catches the ball in the post, there is a lot to worry about beyond completing certain steps. And nevertheless, the vast majority of the time he makes a good play, whether with the pass, a post move, or by drawing a foul. Thorpe made this case, and then we watched Game 3. It was so true: Howard's every post move is greeted with a hailstorm of Laker help defense. Nevertheless he scores efficiently. Single coverage would be a huge mistake. ... [/rquoter] Also a nice video in there where teammate Adonal Foyle discusses Howard's post game. <object width="440" height="361"> <param name="movie" value="http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/player.swf?mediaId=4250060"/> <param name="wmode" value="transparent"/> <param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"/> <embed src="http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/player.swf?mediaId=4250060" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" allowScriptAccess="always" width="440" height="361"></embed> </object> Off topic ... but who wouldn't love to have an Adonal Foyle on their team? Great guy.
You guys often take the case to the extreme, either saying Howard has no post moves or Yao is a poor defender. There is no such thing as black or white. No one is claiming that Howatd is a skilless player. Most of the posters are comparing Yao and Howard, and discussing their strength and weakness. Yes, Howard is offensively skilled, comparable to or a little better than average post players, but he is very raw compared to Yao. Yao is a good defender but does not get as many rebiunds as Howard. How hard it is to understand that??
Hey durvasa, Not saying you're wrong or anything but bringing out Adonal Foyle comments to go against one of the all time great "KAREEM" comments is a little out of reach dont you think? I mean Adonal Foyle? The guy at best is a serviceable backup center. Kareem words should hold more water since his SKYHOOK change the game dont you think?
here's another point. DH athletic/physical abilities are so great compared to the rest of the league right now he can rely on just that to be great. However, as his body age so will those physical abilities. He will need to develop a jumpshot or a babyhook to be able to score. There will be a time where his quickness alone will not be enuff for him to score. What will he do then if he still have no post moves? I'm not saying he wont. I'm just saying will his physical built it will be hard.
I understand where both players are coming from. I don't consider one a refutation of the other. And Foyle is actually in a better position to understand Howard's post game, since he defends him every day in practice. Being a legendary NBA player does not mean your words trump everyone else's. I never subscribed to that theory. I respect Kareem's input, and I understand what he's talking about. But I also respect David Thorpe's opinion, a professional player development guy, and he never even played in the NBA.
The real question here is if Howard has enough offensive skills to allow him to be effective in playoffs against teams like the Lakers. In addition, as others pointed out, what will he rely on for his game once he ages and starts to lose his superhuman ability?
Are you saying he's ineffective? That Orlando would be better off benching him? Maybe you should rephrase the question, because as you put it the answer to me is an obvious "yes". It's a legitimate question. But, I don't agree with others that Howard has not added any skills and he purely relies on his physical abilities. I think he will continue to develop, but he'll be a very good player at least for the next 6-7 years, and probably into his 30s. I think as his athletic abilities start to diminish, his mental approach would also change. Right now, he knows he can be most effective by just trying to explode to the basket, so perhaps he hasn't concentrated as hard on other aspects. As he ages, I would expect him to develop other means to stay effective.
I never said Howard didn't have ANY skills. I did say that he is very limited though in that department. Being only 6'11 270 lbs, there will be players, bigger, stronger, taller, and almost as athletic as him. Maybe those players don't have all that in 1 package, but look at what Yao does to him. Simply by being taller and heavier than Howard and almost just as strong, he shuts him down. He knows as long as he runs the floor with him, boxes him out, and makes him fight for position, he'll shut him down. He doesn't have to worry about any moves, counter moves, and if he goes for a dunk, he'll take his chances by fouling him and making him make free throws. With Yao, there is nobody who can really contest his shots. He will wear down an entire team's front line if they try to front him for 48 minutes (see Portland in Playoffs), and if you don't double team him, he can score without using so much energy and effort. And there will be a day when Howard's athleticism won't be this explosive. You think Dream could've kept playing as explosive as he was in the 80's?? No, he slowed down a little bit by 94, but he improved his skills so much that he didn't need to jump out of the gym. With guys like Shaq and Drob coming into the league as well, he knew he couldn't just over power guys anymroe either. I don't have anything against Howard. I hope he does develop this, because if he doesn't, it could be catastrophic for his career. See Steve Francis, David Robinson, Shawn Kemp, Antonio McDyess, Tracy McGrady. Those were some great athletes who got by on a lot of athleticism early in their careers. Drob, Tmac, Kemp, and McDyess actually worked ont their skills and were able to be good for a good while. But look at SF3, once his athleticism went away, so did everyrthing else. My only thing is the hype surrounding Howard. I think he's a good player, but he's certainly no comparison to Shaql He's not even close In my opion.
come on now. one guy is a chiseled (and calling dwight howard chiseled is like doing his muscles a huge disservice) 265lb+ athletic power forward who can dunk from 10 feet out, and another guy - a grounded unathletic big man who relies on his craftiness to fake his opponents out. You have one guy who is the sole post up player on his team, and then you have luis scola who's primary role is to hit the open jumper. Oh yeah and he plays next to this guy called Yao Ming. And what did the lakers do later in the rockets lakers series with yao out? they started doubling scola. fancy that. So yes, I'd expect Dwight to get more double teams, especially since he's shown yao-like turnover potential.
Let’s be real here: everyone knows that the Magic will be better with Howard -- why is that even a question? But will that be enough with his current offensive repertoire to be competitive with the Lakers? I don’t think so. I agree that he will develop other skills eventually, but I don’t know how much more he can do this. He has been in the league for 5 years already. If you don’t learn it when you are young, you probably never will. Of another note, I agree with many others that there is too much hype surrounding Howard. If you have watched the Lakers-Magic games, you not only see his weakness, you also see that Turkoglu, and perhaps Lewis as well, are the heart and soul of this team. People tend to exaggerate the value of Howard from a relative term to an absolute one. I understand why you do this if you are Magic fan or you are trying to sell a poster child in him. But as a fan of the Rockets that has its own great big man, I can afford being objective and critical.
Hmm, so Thorpe has noticed that Howard is getting the kind of attention in this series that Yao commands say...every game. People note Howard being doubled and tripled like that's a new thing. I thought that was the norm for a dominant pivot.
Great points. I can not agree more! How can you ever compare a Max player with a role player? You can drag Scola into the conversation only if you are willing to pay him 15 mil a year.
Show us an example of this in the current thread, or anywhere from this board. As far as I can tell, the exaggerations for Howard here are basically one-sided. They come from the people that are "critical" of him and claim he has no post up moves, and that he is a sub-par offensive player. And if everyone knows the Magic are better with Howard, why are you questioning whether he's effective against them? You say its not enough for the Magic to be competitive against the Lakers. Strange, considering game 2 was very competitive by all accounts, the Magic defeated the Lakers in game 3, and the Magic won both games in the regular season. By my count, Dwight Howard's team has defeated the Lakers in 3 of the 5 games he's played against them this season. Yao Ming's team defeated the Lakers in 1 of 7 games he's played against them. But none of us question Yao's effectiveness against the Lakers, or whether a team with Yao on it can be competitive against them. And rightfully so. I would suggest we should be objective and critical towards all players, not just the ones on our own team. Actually, if you think about it, the limitations of our own players should be a far greater concern to us than the limitations of others. Being a fan means wanting your team (or player) to be great, not believing they're already there.
Look, Howard is better than Yao, but in a one-on-one matchup, Yao owns Howard, since he's one of the few players around that Howard can't easily back down in the post, and since Howard is going to challenge him straight up rather than do the things that lesser players do to neutralize Yao (fronting) which can't be used as effectively against Howard. So I get it, it's rock paper scissors.....Yao's paper does indeed cover Howard's rock...but Howard's rock pretty much wrecks the sh-t out of the rest of the league and their puny little scissors for the other 80 games per season. I'd rather have the rock.
Salary has nothing to do with it. You're making one argument (Howard is a sub-par low-post player compared to other max players), the people I'm responding to are making another (Howard is a sub-par low-post player, period).
