Good post. But I have to ask you, how much of what Elie is remembered for has Battier done lately? He seems to have lost a step, his offense is lacking and I don't see that vocal leadership you described. Maybe it is because he is still injured or maybe he really is getting old. Battier does get flamed a good amount, but with good reason. He plays too important of a role on our team. If you lost Posey, would the Heat or Celtics still be a contender? Easily. Same goes for Elie and Ariza. The way we use him at the moment isn't exactly similar to the way those other teams used him. They all had consistent offensive threats and never was this integral cog considered part of the "big three" at any point. Miami had Walker, Payton and Kapono to take the load off of Shaq and Dwade. Boston's big three was so solid that all they needed was House, Rondo and Cassell. Notice also that neither Posey nor Ariza start or ever started in the playoffs. There may be success with Battier if we make a move that would take the offensive pressure off of him and send him to the bench. I propose sending Artest to the Wiz for Jamison. See my post in the proposed trades thread, it explains why and how.
Five Star post. Very impressive analysis and comparison of Elie to Battier. I especially liked the point you made how Elie finishes the fast break. Elie was a fierce/strong finisher running the lanes. If Battier could finish the break we probably wouldn't even be having this conversation. Problem is he's a frickin statue on the baseline. I also whole heartedly agree that we need to fix our big 3 pieces but the problem is we aren't gonna get equal value in return. Thus it may be easier to fix/move Battier in terms of getting equal or as close to equal value in return. We are definitely at crossroads because the problem is none of our big 3 come close to Clyde and Dream. Clyde and Dream were extremely consistent in terms of getting you their 20+ and 25+ per game in addition to their other stats. These guys were the true definitions of superstars. Players who were CONSISTENT and brought IT night in and night out. If we had 2 legit superstars I'd have no qualms about Battier being on this team. As far as the "glue" guys go I think Scola is a great glue guy. Chuck Hayes is another but just like Battier he's a huge liability offensively. The thing that upsets me is Battier is playing like absolute garbage and he's a liability on the offensive end he's being exposed and consequently killing his trade value. As good as he is or can be on the defensive end his offensive deficiencies makes it a 4 on 5 game on the offensive end. Just for fun and from a purely speculative standpoint: I'd love to have a player like Outlaw (who I mentioned), possibly Kleiza, and some pipedreams just for fun... players like Ronnie Brewer, Wilson Chandler, Francisco Garcia, Danny Granger Thaddeus Young, Al Thornton. These guys all came out of the draft recently and were late lotto-mid first rounders. The point I'm trying to make is these long defensive minded (for the most part) players are more common than ever and they have athletic ability and an OFFENSIVE game to boot. Some of those guys have so much an offensive game that they're destined for stardom Young, Thornton. I think it's safe to say Granger is already there. The point is I think it may be worth taking a risk and trading Battier for a early-mid 1st rounder and taking the chances of finding our own player similar to the ones I mentioned. The days of being a strict defensive specialist is dead. As a matter of fact the only reason why one gets labeled a defensive specialist yes that's you Shane and Bruce.... is because you got little to no game on the offensive end.
So stop reading and stop posting. Doubtful you'll be missed. Mario Elie didn't cost anyone a #8 Lottery pick. And if the subject is transition O...it's not even close. Elie hands down. And quit re-writing history. Elie clearly averaged 10+ ppg on the championship teams. Battier has averaged 370+ 3 pointers for Houston. Elie's career high was 286 in '96. But the real difference is this. Had PHI defended Elie with freakin' Andre Miller (as they did with Shame), he'd have found some way to burn Miller. Elie would have been offended and done something on offense...transition, drive, post up, cut to the basket give and go style, stop and pop...anything but trot to the short corner arc and stand there.
Mario Elie is a freaking terrible comparison for Shane Battier. Just because a guy wasn't offensively gifted doesn't mean he was a complete and total liability. Pre-Jalen Rose, Elie could pump fake and slam it down your throat if you closed in on him and he also ran the break well. He wasn't stuck in cement on the perimeter like Shane. I'll never understand how criticizing Shane Battier became some sort of taboo. His disastrous performance is the elephant in the room that everyone is keenly aware of, but mum in pointing out lest they be slapped with some obscure +/- ownage or all-time greatest 'charges drawn to blocking fouls' ratio.
Agreed about Mario, he was a better pro player than Battier...an equal defender, and much better on offense. DD
Sorry, but this post is so absurdly cliche in its flaws that I have to respond. None of those guys from Ron Harper to Ariza to James Posey are stuck in cement like Shane Battier. They run the floor and in Harper's case, even brought the ball up. More importantly, they didn't underscore the team's problems with their presence in the lineup. We already have the slowest player in the NBA in Yao Ming. We're starting possibly the most inept starting point guard in the league next to him in Rafer Alston. With a largely ineffective McGrady, you're just asking for trouble starting Battier out there with them. I like Shane. He's a great team defender and a glue guy that every championship team needs. He's also a luxury that I thought we could finally afford with the addition of Artest. Turns out, maybe not. There's also the issue of us trading a lottery pick for the guy. If we had a semi-decent point guard, I wouldn't mind starting him, but there's no way he and Rafer should be on the court together.
I've never liked him and have always thought of him as overated. I hate it when people talk about a players intangibles. That usually means they can't give you much that's tangible.
I have wanted him for YEARS.... I would be happy with any of the following players for Artest, they all fit but in different ways, but IMO they make the team better. Jamison Magette Mike Miller Hinrich Andre Miller TJ Ford DD
The Black Knight, If Elie was on this team, we wouldn't have this thread. JVG uses the term "knife fighters." Elie is that and some. Battier is more like a spoon fighter. Elie went to the spurs and made the spurs a tough team. He called out the whole team for being soft. Elie was a tough sob that like the other poster said, if u ran at him out of control, he would take it to the rack and dunk it on your head. There have been and always will be canyons for dribble drives with yao and tracy on the floor. Shane with the iq or lack of never attacks them. That's why for the last 2 or 3 yrs I've been begging,kicking, and screaming for the rockets to get guys like that. They signed Barry, I wouldve signed evans,barnes,davis, or resigned green. They found a guy that does those things with Wafer, but it wouldn't hurt to have another. Look at the sig.
This is exactly why the Rockets is ineffective down the strecth of games!! The Lakers have 5 players that can score on their starting unit; Kobe,Gasol, Bynum, Radmonovich, and Fisher. So does Boston and SA Spurs. Until the weakest man amongst your starting unit become a viabal scorer, you will never win a title. Last year was Rondo (Boston), Bruce Bowen (SA Spurs) before that, and Prince (Detriot) before that. The NBA is too good for two players to win consistently. Look at the play-offs the Rockets have been in with Battier, he has been totally ineffective - period!! Ron can score but, RON DOES NOT FIT THIS TEAM!! If you have to bring him in off the bench, that tells you he does not fit with the starting five, when they bring him in in the 4th quarter, this is why they can not score. They are not working as a cohesive unit. I am a huge Rocket fan but I have come to the conclusion that this team is not going to win it this year. Our frontline is too slow (Yao/Scola) to defend or too small (Landry/Hayes) this is why we give up so many layups (see Philly and New York games). We do not have a true 6'10" player that can block shots and defend the paint (I would kill to have Speights from Philly). I really think DM needs to call Portland and try to trade Battier to Portland for Outlaw and Frye!! That would give us another scorer opposite McGrady and a 6'10" player that is some what effective.
I don't understand what standard most of you guys are using? What NBA team goes more than about 6 players deep with legit scorers? The Lakers have Kobe, Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Vujajic and Radmonvic who else on that roster is capable of torching you for 20 every night (if you answer Fisher then you have to put Rafer among our "scorers")? Boston has Garnett, Allen, Pierce, House and Rondo(?). This premise that all your starters need to be scorers is ridiculous. Your role players can be asked to pick up the slack on occaision but your asking for trouble when you ask players to change their roles. I agree that its a little ridiculous that a team can guard him with their point guard due to his injury and total lack of agression, but sometimes a team can catch you off guard with a gimmick defense. Our lack of cohesion and injuries (and play calling in the fourth quarter as of recently) is our problem not Shane Battier.
You need to have players that can be a Threat to Score. No one ever said they have to have to score 20 points every night. They just have to be a threat to score 20 on a given night. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME BATTIER SCORED 20 POINTS IN A GAME??? For that matter; Luther Head, Chuck Hayes, Mutombo, Landry, Brooks, or Barry.
i give up on these fickled rockets fans..if every other player on the rockets team is playing subpar they get a pass...they had surgery..they play with heart...thats crap if they not getting the job done sit their butts down...he's not excluded..he been sucking all year but thats ok because he is ...BATTIER.
I never said Battier was untouchable or tradable. IF we can get that same type of role player in return then sure, I'll take that trade. My point was, every team needs a guy to do the little things. If Yao, Tmac, and Artest were all playing the way they did last year, then this wouldn't be an issue. But maybe we do need somebody a little bit more offensively gifted. I would love to get Travis Outlaw. I don't think Portland will make that trade, but hey if he's available lets get him. I know Battier wasn't as good as some of the players I listed, BUT he plays a similar role that those guys played. Imagine the last 3 years with Tmac having to guard the other team's best wing or some other below average defender?? Tmac would be worn out and the Rockets would get burned every night. I agree Elie was a better player, more than anything because of his toughness. I loved him when he was here, great team player. I wasn't trying to put him down by any means, I was just trying to prove a point.
Rockets got Mario Elie for peanuts. Elie was rotting on the Blazers team. Battier was brought in for a lottery pick. On top of that, Elie would kick Shane's ass any day...literally too, if needed. Heck, he would kick this entire p***y of a team's ass.
