I'm not sure if you've seen pictures of the bombed out, blown up streets and people of Germany as the Allies advanced. I can assure you that we didn't limit the effects of our weapons to only those people wearing NSDAP Party pins. In fact, some of the most heavily damaged structures were those Catholic churches. Ultimately, the people are treated with respect to the policies of their leaders. That has and always will be the truth. If the palestinians want to try and pull a Wolfschanze on the Hamas leaders and achieve a negotiated peace with Israel, I'm sure the Israelis will listen.
What the Allies did in WW2 was indefensible from a modern standpoint. They didn't have the pinpoint accurate arsenal modern states have now otherwise they would've been charged with war crimes. This is an ugly and bitter truth, but I like to think the Allies were trying to preserve civilian lives, they were just incapable of doing it. Isreal is capable of doing it. With modern advances in technology, widespread, carpet bombing and ground offensives should no longer even be an option in a situation like this. But I hope you're not actually advocating treating civilians with respects to the policies of their leaders. That's madness. With your line of thought, a lot more civilians would be dead in Afghanistan and Iraq and modern warfare would still be the same bloodbath that the horrors of WW1 and WW2 brought us. The fact is, Hamas and Nazi Germany are similar in one respect; in a point of desperation, the people of both countries unleashed a monster. Germany was bullied and humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles, Palestine has been humbled and bullied by superior Isreali forces. Starting an assault of this caliber just confirms for the people that their deepest fears were true; like the conflict in Lebanon, this will only serve to legitimize extremism. Very short-sighted for Israel to pursue this.
They aren't carpet bombing. If they were there would be 100,000 - 200,000 dead. They are not conducting the war in a WWII style as you insinuate. And how, exactly, can you have a war without ground offensives? It simply isn't possible. That is kind of the definition of a land war. They aren't targeting civilians. We didn't target civilians in WWII. When they needed to hit a target, like a factory or a redoubt, they did it with the best available precision. The precision is much better now, but it is still not perfect. Then, as now, you try to hit the enemy the best you can with what you have. Simply because the combatants are hiding among civilians, no Army in the history of the Universe has acted the way you advocate. If the enemy hides among civilians, you use the sharpest tool you have to cut them out. You do the best you can. The laws of war are clearly set up in such a way to blame innocent deaths on combatant who hide among civilians, not the advancing army. The 'poor peaceful Palestinian' argument I get from the KPFT crowd is beginning to look to me like a new version of the 'noble savage' primitivist racist philosophy of the last century. There seems to be a kneejerk belief that their suffering is somehow more worthy or noble than when the non-poor suffer. Suffering is suffering. The poor are just as greedy, barbarous, and cruel as the rich.
They are not carpet bombing I will give you that. I was exaggerating to make my point clear; there are better options this this massively disproportionate response. Pursuing a ground war in the first place is idiotic and comes back to the same mistake Isreal made with Lebanon. You said it yourself; that is kind of the definition of a land war but not war itself. War can take many other forms, each less taxing then a full-out ground offensive. Limited air strikes. Tactical assassinations. etc. etc. etc., why those options were shelved immediately is beyond belief. And that's not even delving into the peaceful solutions to this conflict. Why Isreal is insane is not because of some "poor" people suffering complex, it's because Isreal chose the worst possible option and which will yield the worst possible result (global disdain, increased support for Hamas, completely destroying the Middle East peace process by overstepping the line) And your last paragraph makes absolutely no sense. You could have argued that if the casualties were not disproportionate and if the suffering were somehow equal on a tangible level that people automatically sympathize with the poor underdogs for no particular reason then their poverty (which if you're an ethical human being with morals you should, in my opinion, but I digress). If you're going to try to argue that Israelis have suffered more from this particular conflict then Palestinians, go ahead, try to pursue that.
I think part of the problem is that with the advances in technology Israel doesn't have to use cluster bombs in crowded civilian areas, but they choose to do so. They also use phosphorous weapons which is also not necessary. It is clear that Israel isn't always using the sharpest tool they have to avoid civilian deaths. Just because the various Palestinian groups have resorted to terrorism and attacks on civilian areas also doesn't mean they aren't being mistreated by the Israelis. I think it is OK, and valid to criticize both sides for what they are guilty of. Israel - guilty of setting up a prejudice apartheid system that oppresses all Palestinians. guilty of breaking various treaties and accords, guilty of bombing civilian targets using less than the most precision weapons available to them. Has killed many more civilians than the Palestinians have. Palestinians - guilty of using terrorism, and targeting civilian centers. Guilty of breaking various treaties and accords. I think both sides have plenty to be criticized over, and excusing the injustice of one side because of the actions of the other isn't right or helpful.
Fair enough. As I said before, if I thought the discussions were more balanced I would be talking about the things that I believe that Israel is doing wrong and the problems that they need to rectify.
It is true that you'll find less people willing to argue Israel's cause. That's just humanity 101, we tend to sympathize with the underdog. I think it's just wired within us. Plus, I do think there is a tendency towards antisemitism, even maybe on a subconscious level...can't be discounted as a factor at least. Still, while Palestine has numerous faults, the ground offensive actually serves to whitewash them away and instead focus everyone's eyes on Israel's faults because it was so massively disproportionate. That's what I'm arguing; that the Israeli gouvernment had other options on the table but chose the worst one. That's why I think Israel is being irrational and possibly insane in this conflict.
Condemning Israel's guilt in this instance does not preclude acknowledgement of Hamas' guilt. The two are perfectly consistent. That's my problem with much of this thread - this assumption of a mutual exclusivity of culpability.
I think racism towards Arabs and Muslims is a big problem in the West (the US and Europe), much more so than racism towards Jews.
I find it a bit sad that people on this board are still engaging in discussion in a calm and detached tone. Where's your passion for justice, peace, democracy, and human rights? You shouldn't be debating with civility, you should be filled with outrage and anger. Well.. as least the Europeans can always be counted on to be the conscience of the world... http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/10/israel.gaza.uk.protests/index.html Watching the news being inundated with this invasion, I can't help but lose all faith in the international system, powerless and paralyzed in inaction. It reminds me of the death of the League of Nations when the world sat around and did nothing to stop Italy invading Selassie Ethiopia. As an American, I do feel somewhat relieved that China/France/Russia hasn't stepped up to help the Gazans, otherwise, years from now, people will point to this event as the straw that finally broke America's back in terms of global political hegemony, just as our financial meltdown and fiscal irresponsibility has already broken our economic hegemony. We would entirely lose the moral high ground that has enabled us to be the last beacon of hope in a world order constructed on realpolitik, hypocrisy, and newspeak.
I agree. We should go rabble somewhere. <embed src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:southparkstudios.com:153618:" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="window" width="480" height="360" allowFullscreen="true" scriptAccess="always"></embed>
There is no doubt a good deal of that. There is a long way to go to heal the scars. Of course Israel has laws that discriminate against Palestinians and keep them in an apartheid like system that is completely unjust. So it all has to be undone.
My roommate went to the border with Gaza, a few kilometers from the sniper line and took photos of Beyt Hanun and Sderot. I apologize in advance for my sloppy captions. I was drunk. And Joe the Plumber was there. I would much prefer it to have been maybe Hakeem or Calvin Murphy, but these kind of high profile people don't exactly visit Israel. Anyway... http://telavivcowboy.com/blog/2009/01/11/photos-from-gaza-and-joe-the-plumber-january-11-2009/
I'm guessing your sympathy is sincere...but time changes everything, everything that is, except for Tracy McGrady's motivation, and war in the Middle East. But I'm fine. We all find our way back to ourselves.
