No, it wouldn't. I don't blame him for supporting the war. I blame him for being a dishonest propagandist in its service, for misleading the press corps and by extension the American people and helping thereby to extend the war. He lied up there. I would and will condemn any press secretary who lies to the press corps. I would and will condemn them considerably more intensely when lives are at stake. And I don't condemn or loathe people for being conservatives. I condemn or loathe people for helping to advance the ball (in a big, powerful way) on some of the more heinous activities administered by certain people who happen to be conservatives. Conservatism is an ideology. You're all welcome to it. In this war, people died for lies. And Tony Snow was one of those liars. I'm not here to slam a dead man, but I'm not going to sit on my hands while people try to honor him for being either a good or honest press secretary or a good or honest journalist. He was neither. May he R.I.P. anyway.
Do you condemn Bill Moyers? Your very liberal media icon lied his ... behind ... off for LBJ. I loved JFK and LBJ but I knew their spokesmen were saying what their respective bosses wanted them to say. Every -- and I mean every -- presidential spokesman since the office came into being has lied to and/or misled the press at one time or another. I'm not saying its right, but you must then condemn them all and the entire process if you are going to use this as a basis for deeming Snow "dishonest."
Batman, I generally agree with your posts. I respect you either way, but I guess we will disagree on the matter of where 'honesty' or 'deception' originates. Admittidly, this is not an absolute dichotomy; there is surely gray area. I strongly oppose the Iraq War and believe specific members of Bush's gang should face a congressional subpoena. IMO, Paul Bremer, Cheney, Bush are cheifly to blame. In the same way you should blame a corrupt corporation as a whole in addition to the executives themselves, the Bush administration and all those in any involved are culpable. However, the true deception was done at a much high level than Tony Snow. The Press Secretary is simply the guy paid to be the liaison between the scrutiny of the press and the decisions/information that the executive branch are forced to share. I'm not claiming every word he said up there was verifiably true, because it's been emphatically proven otherwise. This to me is simply a byproduct of a corrupt, greedy, and close-minded administration, on whose behalf he spoke. I mean, truthfully, and it isn't pretty, but if you work is to pubicly represent liars, you will lie. If you were the PR guy at Enron, you said untrue things to the public and intentionally misinformed the public, but that doesn't make you accountable for the root of the deception. The fact that people were uninformed is a secondary problem compared to the real disaster going on. If you think Tony Snow was dishonest, I think it's because you think he sold his soul to work for a dishonest machine. Maybe so, but I really felt Tony was sincere and proud, always on his game, one of the good guys on the wrong team.
concurred. many sympathies to friends and especially fam. and death is never nice. but i hate this revisionist history once people die. i have no reason to think he wasn't a decent person. but being a spokesman for this admin deserves only criticism.
Since these things usually come in threes, and we've had Helms and Snow... Who completes the Dead Conservative trifecta? a) Dick Cheney b) Tom Delay c) Karl Rove d) Donald Rumsfeld Maybe we should start a poll
Ship, your missing my point. and your the one who is short sighted Im not trying to downplay Tony Snows death, im trying to up play everyone elses. It is tragic when anyone dies before there time. and im sorry for his family and friends. However, one of his last jobs, was to stand on a podium everyday and downplay the death of American soilders and I think its kind of ironic that when he passes away all that has to be pushed aside and forgotten about. I never said he started the war or had anything to do with its operation. But if GWB called me tommorw and asked if I wanted to stand up there and lie for him, I would tell him to go to hell. Its not like he had to stand up there and do that. I guess my main problem is that had this not been TS, instead it was 5 marines who died in a car bomb, all you would be hearing about is freakin gas prices. And I think there a problem with that.
Four separate issues: 1 giddyup, tell me how I "slammed" Tony Snow. You are going off the deep end, which is your right and privilege. I'm not going there with you. I can understand your responses in the Jesse Helms thread because there were a lot of very bad things said about him. In fact, while some of the remarks were dead on, others were crazy, IMO. But for me to say I respected Tony Snow before he became Bush's press secretary and for you to call that "slamming" is ridiculous. 2 Is this a message board or not? So what if people want to "slam" Tony Snow in this thread. What is wrong with that? One of the things I resent the most here (besides hijacking threads) are people who chastise others for expressing an opinion. Who do you think you are? If somebody wants to criticize Tony Snow, let them. Or make your comment and don't read the thread anymore. Legitimate discussion in D&D is a good thing and should be encouraged. Are we having a funeral here for the deceased? No. We are discussing their life, both good and bad. 3 Batman, unlike you, I think Tony Snow was a good and honest journalist, especially before joining the Bush team. I don't know how well you knew him, but he was one of the few conservative talk show guys that would legitimately criticize the GOP. He was the only truly intellectually honest conservative talk-show host I listened to. This is why I was completely floored (and very sad) when he accepted the position as press secretary. 4 bigtexx, you are the biggest phoney, fraud and loser on this forum. When giddyup questioned my comments, it gave me pause. When you chimed in, I knew I did nothing wrong. For you to tell anyone else here to show respect or grow up is a complete joke. It would be a nice thing if people could take more than 10% of your comments seriously. But, unfortunately, your internet persona shuns respectful and mature discussion.
Here is what you wrote: "Decent, likeable guy who I respected before he was Bush's press secretary." Maybe slammed is too strong a word but you did say that you had no respect for a man who had just died. That's your right to have that opinion. I understand the criticism; I just don't get the unequivocality of it. Time and place. My question is the appropriateness of posting that opinion in his RIP thread. Forgive me if I'm being a hypocrite here; we all draw the line somewhere. I just can't figure why someone like Tony Snow is on the "enemies list." Saddam, yeah! Tony Snow? If we can express opinions, we surely can express opinions about opinions!
Maybe this is splitting hairs or maybe it's you reading too much into nothing. But I did not say I had "no respect" for him. You read that into my words. Besides, did you miss my 2nd post (which was before your first): The appropriateness of what to post in "RIP" threads I addressed in #2. We'll just have to disagree on that one too. Regarding opinions on opinions: There are times when people express thoughts here and are basically shouted down for doing so. Remember when the militant Y-O-Fs used to explode and try to stifle debate about Yao's shortcomings? Another poster used to go after me for me comments on V-Span. I don't know if you read the NBA Forum much, but tinman hijacks threads whenever anyone says something about Sam Cassell or Robert Horry he doesn't like. The scenarios are different but the purpose is the same: To make sure the "offending" poster(s) don't express that opinion again. This is where stating an "opinion on an opinion" goes too far. I know that wasn't your intent.
I'm glad you didn't mean to be so abrupt, but having respect before but not having respect after some event to me indicates a total loss of respect. I thought that was harsh. I probably jumped on your first remark before even seeing the second one.... Blame my age. I'm at an age where I've lost my parents, all my aunts and uncles. My wife has started to lose those of that generation on her side as well. I feel crowded by death and I think the dead should be respected because surely they did some good in their lives-- especially someone like Tony Snow. Sometimes the best sign of respect is to be quiet if there is no fondness or admiration. There was plenty of time to criticize Snow when he was doing his job and that door will open again after he's been gone awhile, but I don't think the day the news breaks of is passing is long enough. I won't go there for Saddam or OBL or some of the other despots out there, so, yes, I run the risk of hypocrisy. My criticism is a plea not a demand.
Wow, you're a saint for standing up for him. Somebody give this guy a medal.... Helms and Snow were both public figures, and they shall be judged for their public acts after life as much or more than they were judged during life. That's the gig; they both signed up for it, lived for it even. Believe me, all the negative comments towards Snow in this thread are being much more kind to him than historians of the Bush administration will be.
It seems one of reasons a public figure's death is reported is to reintroduce a discussion about their life, good or ill.
I have a lot of feelings about Tony Snow. Virtually none of them are positive. He believed in things though and I admire that. Even if they weren't the things I believe in. I would never stand up for him. And I am offended to my core by the idea that someone should be judged more favorably in death than they were in life, because that forgives a bad life and makes a good one less meaningful. But I am sorry that he died. And I'm sorry he died so young.
accessory Someone who intentionally helps another person commit a felony by giving advice before the crime or helping to conceal the evidence or the perpetrator. An accessory is usually not physically present during the crime. http://www.nolo.com/definition.cfm/Term/5465C33F-648D-4B8A-B35D5B9BAF16B0A3/alpha/A/
I'm not sure from whom or where you are getting this aspect. Not from me. I'm not judging Snow; I'm respecting his passing and acknowledging that. Perhaps no one should be trumpeting his reputation just as they should not be denigrating it. Let's all just take a moment to contemplate the passing of a human life-- this one abruptly and prematurely. That should give us all pause! Just something to think about.... but there are people not worthy of that kind of respect (i.e. Saddam, OBL et al).
It's pretty cowardly to decide to broadcast your judgement of him on the day he dies. Show some respect. You and A3PO are again trying to be all cute and sneak your jabs in on the day of the man's death. Wow, that's big of you.
I think the fact that this thread was started in D&D indicates that the thread starter knew this would be a controversial subject to some extent. I like others am disappointed in the role Tony Snow played in this White House but by all accounts he was a bright guy who was well respected in his circles and his passing deserves a degree of respect. The shame of it is the BigTexxx's trying to lump someone like Helms with Tony Snow. His comment about Helms being a long time servant of the American people was sickening. Helms dedicated his entire public life to hating minorities and working against them at every turn, unrepentant of his bigotry until the very end, whereas Snow took a position where his job was to push the President's propaganda on various issues whether he agreed with it or not. Some people obviously have strong feelings on Snow's role in what they feel is a criminal war but I don't think any of that reaches the Jesse Helms level. Anyway, if anyone's passing deserves to be discussed today it's that of Michael Debakey. A special talent who dedicated his life to improving the lives of countless people over the years. Michael Debakey was a great American. RIP
