2 Dead as Protests Break out in Tibet

are you Maxwell?

 

I'm just a follower.
not a rocket god.

 

Fascinating that this discussion with rz04 is happening in a Houston Rockets forum. Amazing what technology has brought us.

rz04, as you can tell from my registration info I'm a long-time Rockets fan... but I actually found your post quoted in a Chinese-language forum. You're getting a little bit famous. Why don't you (and perhaps even your extended family) join us over there some time as well...? You would do Tibetans and China a great favor by sharing your thoughts with more Chinese people directly. (www.mitbbs.com - China News)

Much of what you describe sounds accurate and factual to me. I for one believe your father might've changed his name... don't forget that many Han Chinese were changing their names during the '60s as well, to more patriotic sounding names like weiguo, weijun, etc, etc. It was a very unique time. (I don't fully believe the claim that Han Chinese workers were being "assigned" to Tibet in the late '90s, however. I think you misunderstand that part of history. Make sure you talk to your parents and are clear on that part of the story... because it doesn't sound correct.)

I think some good might come out of the last month's conflict. It's not healthy or reasonable for ethnic conflict to remain hidden, especially when one side is completely unaware that it even exists. The fact that more Han Chinese are becoming aware of Tibetan complaints is a helpful thing.

All in all, over the past few decades, I believe in the possible existence of "accidental" cultural genocide in Tibet... but I know we're all agreed Western press coverage of government policy in Tibet is ridiculously biased. I think it's important to get into a discussion of how we can achieve the Dalai Lama's stated goals of preserving Tibetan culture/religion, because it's a goal that Chinese of all races share.

But even if we agree with the Dalai Lama's goals, do we have to agree with his methods? Is the only way to preserve Tibetan culture/language the isolation of Tibetans from Han Chinese? There's no friendly way of understanding the exile government's suggested policies for Tibet... it's very much an isolationist message that calls for non-Tibetans to get out of Tibet. Speaking as a Chinese citizen who's very sympathetic towards Tibetan culture/religion/language, the Tibetan government-in-exile's publicly stated policies are just not acceptable.

I hope that Han Chinese and Tibetan Chinese can compromise to work out a moderate solution.

 

The fact that the Dalai Lama preaches peace doesn't make his political demands any more acceptable.

I'm also not convinced he has any options other than being peaceful; keep in mind that he knew very well that he was starting a war when he left Lhasa in '59. He wasn't calling for a peaceful resistance then, because he thought he might actually win with assistance from New Delhi, Washington DC, and Taiwan.

As far as the threats of renewed rebellion... I don't know how to make this any more clear than saying: the vast majority of Chinese are not afraid of fighting a Tibetan intifada. It wouldn't be pretty for either side, but it's not a war that China would lose. China isn't Sri Lanka. I know the Tibet government-in-exile has been passing around this sort of hint for decades... deal with the Dalai Lama or face consequences... frankly, I don't know of a single Chinese person who's bothered by the concept of "consequences" from Tibetan freedom-fighters or foreign backers.

Frankly, in my opinion, the best thing the Tibetan people can do is appeal to the Chinese conscience. All of us were raised to think of all races/cultures in China as equal flowers in a large bouquet (naive or not), and all of us were raised to value minority culture. The Communist Party's propaganda has worked very well in that respect, and Tibetans should be using it to their advantage. While we're not afraid of Tibetan freedom-fighters... the thought that Tibetans might eventually lose their language and culture concerns and saddens many, many Chinese with a conscience.

For Tibetan activists working to preserve their culture and religion, they have to start by lowering the Tibetan independence flag. Our sympathies don't extend to independence for Tibet; any and every time that flag is flown, the wall grows higher.

Instead... fly the Chinese 5-star flag, sing the Chinese national anthem (in Tibetan...?). Tell all of us that you love China, but you're sad China isn't living up to its promise of preserving Tibetan culture... and you'll find many of us on your side, trying to find a solution to what's a difficult problem.

 

Looks like it's already too late to join the discussion. As anyone can tell from my ID, I’m a Chinese and I don’t hide it. I joined this BBS in 2002, when Yao Ming joined the Rockets. A long time lurker on this BBS, mostly in Dish and GARM, I’ve always found D&D interesting as well. I read numerous posts, in which people from very different places and backgrounds exchange information, insightful thoughts and opinions through friendly discussions and debates (yes I realize that’s the name of this board). I have learned a lot on basketball and non-basketball over the years here (for that I thank Clutch and the Internet). I’ve followed the China-related topics very closely, although I’ve never participated in those threads.

One reason why I am now posting this is, I believe in the good intentions of all people. Therefore, I believe that, between Chinese and the Americans, there should be way more understanding, appreciation and friendship, and less hostility than there really is. I think we should always try to understand and help, instead of dissing and insulting each other. Offensive sarcasms, personal attacks, or shouting “China sucks” or “the US sucks” is definitely not going to help.

There is no denial that China currently faces numerous problems. Human right issues, lack of religious freedom, environment deterioration, just to name a few. However, these are not even the problems that the majority of Chinese care about most nowadays. They are more concerned with other issues such as corruption, inflation and economical inequality. As many posters have pointed out, Chinese netizens talk tons of negative things about China all the time. Some are moderate; some are very vehement. But when China is wrongfully criticized, the same group of people will be defenders of China. The #1 reason why they got very frustrated recently is because the western media manipulates only part of the facts and leads to misunderstanding and hatred of people in the west toward China. This in turns increases the hatred of the Chinese toward the west, and it definitely doesn't help with China's democratization. It is really no more than a lose-lose situation.

I support the peaceful protest of anybody, either in favor of or against China. I am against use of violence, both of the Tibetans against the Han Chinese/muslims/etc., and of the Chinese government against the Tibetans. When the Lhasa incident broke out, people (including me) started to realize that Tibet is a larger issue than we had always thought. The fact so many Tibetans are upset with the current situation made me think there must be some serious problems. They have my sympathy and I hope the conflict is going to be settled down peacefully, before any more blood is shed. However, westerners, many of whom don’t have a good understanding of Chinese history, culture, what kind of lives the Chinese people live, or what they want, also should try to put their feet into the shoes of the Chinese people. Imagine if it were the US, after being invaded and bullied for 100 years, would you be frustrated when those people come back and try to tell you what to do and what not to do? Would you be upset with the people who mess with an event that your country is going to host and is supposed to bring peace? I mean, maybe the Chinese do have a point? Shouldn’t the opinion of over one billion people also be respected?

You might say, the Chinese people are all brainwashed and they don’t know what they are doing. That’s simply not true. Do I consider myself brainwashed by the communist China? I don’t. Neither do I believe in communism. Not because it’s evil, but it’s not realistic, because it doesn't recognize the human nature of being materialistic and selfish. Political education has always been part of my education, but communism has never convinced me. I consider myself capable of independent thinking, and really, overuse of the word “brainwash” is offensive. When it comes to being influenced by the media, I am fully aware that the Chinese state media cover up things, block outside news, or even outright lie. Therefore, I don’t always trust them. Well, can I trust Voice of America (probably contrary to many might assume, VOA radio has been easily accessible almost everywhere in China for a long time)? I don’t either, because they are just as apparently biased as the Chinese state media. Since I came to the US in 2002, I have found the American media more objective and less biased. The more I watch the US media, however, the more I realize they are also highly and deeply biased and prejudiced. They apply double standard to things and make you feel like that you know the entire story. They keep saying the bottle is half empty, so much that you don’t even realize that the bottle is half full. In a sense the lies that they have being telling are much more professional, better disguised, therefore more effective than the notorious propaganda from the Chinese government, which not many people still believe. Eventually, the chances that a US citizen being “brainwashed” is not that much smaller than a Chinese being “brainwashed”. In my opinion, if a Chinese believes that the American people are miserably exploited by the capitalists, capitalism is to be toppled by communism, he/she is brainwashed. On the other hand, if an American thinks that communism is all bad, China has no freedom or democracy whatsoever, and the Chinese people all speak and act like how the CCP tells them to, then he/she is brainwashed. While there are few true communists remaining in China, the majority of wester people still hold the stereotype that Chinese people are like working ants that don't differ from one another. Since no media is completely trustable, the best we can do is to keep an open mind, listen to difference sources, and try as hard as we can to make a neutral and objective judgment. At least, that’s what I try to do.

The fact is, Chinese people also crave for democracy and freedom of speech, and we never deny that human rights should be respected. What we are against is, these issues being used as a tool for unobjectively portraying us. As evidenced by everyone, many overseas Chinese, who of course were not instilled the communist propaganda, are equally excited about the coming Olympics game and have generally been opposing the “free Tibet” activities. I’m quite sure that many Taiwanese, democracy activists against CCP will be on the side of the Chinese government on the Olympics issue, too. This really has less to do with ideology than with national/ethnical pride. The cultural difference also plays a role. The eastern culture always puts the interest of the collective above the individual, whereas the west advocates individualism. While the east emphasizes territorial integrity of the country, the west always puts freedom, equality above everything else. As a result, an easterner may look uncharacteristic and submissive to a westerner, whereas a westerner may appear undisciplined and arrogant to an easterner. While both might find each other bigoted and annoying, ignoring the cultural difference only widens the gap between them and elicits nationalism and xenophobia on both sides. The good thing is, the trend is that there always will be, as there should be, more and more interaction, communication and understanding.

In a competition, you always try to put yourself in an advantageous position, and put your rival in a disadvantageous position. It also applies to the competition between countries, which, be it political or economical, is ultimately driven by national interests. That's the rule of the game. For example, why did the US have the cold war against the USSR? Is it because the US politicians really wanted to save the Russian people from the authoritarian dictatorship, and stop Stalin from murdering its own people? Or is it just because the US wanted to be the only superpower of the world? I think it’s more of the latter. However, the people of a country are not equal to their government; the Chinese people are not naturally hostile to the American people, and vice versa. No matter how unpleasant the way realpolitik works, I think in the future, through mixing of people and their mutual understanding, there will be less differences and hatred among people, and the barriers will be gradually dissolved.

Just my two cents. Sorry for the long post.

 

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Great post -- I think what bothers many of us here is - as you will notice we tear into our government and US policies with the same zeal we criticize China's policies on Tibet or whatever strikes us as discussion worthy. It seems the Chinese posters dig their heals in for the most part and will not even hint at breaking the party line or consider making the slightest criticism against their government. This is despite the fact that most live here in the states with little intention of returning to China except for the occasional vacation.

 

i missed the other posts but i assume you are referring to Vernon Maxwell?

that i would have to disagree. no he was not great (if that is your claim). He had a nice run and has a place in "true" rockets fans' hearts but thats about it.

BTW - tinman. is ANYONE who doesn't know who Larry Smith, Mad Max, Billy Paultz, Robert Reid, etc, blah blah blah not a real fan?

 

You are wrong. That is a horrible post.

We need more name-calling and trolling!!

Btw- i think you are a bit overly simplistic in your view of the Chinese. Maybe, just maybe, we see 2 sides to this issue. If anything, I think this thread (if you filter out the trolling) has shown that there is an arguable basis for both sides. That does not mean that we all toe the party line.

 

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don't turn yourself into the enemy. Maxwell is forever. i will turn this freaking thread into a Maxwell fight and I WILL NOT LOSE TO YOU PAL.

Tibet will be a free country by time you think I'll let you get away from talking bad about Maxwell!

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All of China, USA, the Earth will not stop me from defending Maxwell.

if you don't think he's great than you don't like the fact he turned the Rockets around against phoenix and you don't like him iceing game 7 with the Knicks to give the Rockets a championship.

Hell, that makes you hate the Rockets. I don't care if you have 1000 Yao jerseys. there's only ONE #11 who's won a championship here.

 

With all due respect... bull$hit.

All that the Dalai Lama has said on the issue of independence is that he is not "seeking" independence; he believes that it's "better" for Tibet to stay part of China. And there's a huge difference between a "preference" and a "commitment" to keeping Tibet part of the PRC.

Reading through the Tibet government-in-exile's previous long-term strategy for independence, it's always spoken of an independence that would happen in multiple phases. The first phase would be a high degree of autonomy.

If the Dalai Lama is going to taint himself with politics, he needs to go all the way. He needs to stand tall and use all of his religious/spiritual authority in speaking of this political issue. He needs to speak of Tibetan independence the same way he speaks of Shugden worshipers and Chinese "cultural genocide": as a threat that would be fatal to Tibet. Until that's on the table, there isn't enough common ground for a compromise.

The Dalai Lama has always been a very intelligent man. During the '50s, he was repeatedly seduced on the issue of Tibetan independence. Giving in, reconsidering, giving in, reconsidering, and finally giving in. By the time he ultimately decided to leave Lhasa in '59, he was no longer a teenager, and the decision was far from an impulsive whim.

The last time Beijing tried a peaceful resolution with the Dalai Lama, it turned into precisely that: a war with a lot of bloodshed.

As long as the Dalai Lama hasn't successfully separated religion and politics, what he calls autonomy will inevitably turn into a theocracy. You do understand the difference here, right? The Dalai Lama has never called for "religious freedom" guaranteed by the state in Tibet; he's calling for *autonomy*. Adopting this position means Beijing will be abandoning all of the thousands of Tibetans who have lived/worked/sacrificed for a secular government in Tibet.

And quite frankly, as a Chinese citizen in the 21st century, I have no idea why I should in any way support the existence of a theocracy in my country.

First of all, there are real questions as to whether Scotland will be passing a referendum for independence from the UK over the next 4 years.

That said, I'm okay with Scottish-type autonomy: locally elected government consisting primarily of Tibetans. However, Scotland's autonomy only extends so far; the Scottish Parliament can only touch very limited policy issues. Scotland doesn't have the legal authority to introduce a theocracy, for example.

 

The scale of what we're talking about is the problem. The Tibetan regions that the Dalai Lama's government in exile is seek to carve out is *huge*. It's equivalent to carving out Oregon/Washington/Idaho as "tribal lands" that average Americans can't travel into.

Frankly, if we're going to talk about something along these lines... I'm comfortable with something along the scale of Hong Kong Island or Vatican City. Let's give the Dalai Lama "full" autonomy over the operation of old Lhasa. The Dalai Lama can rule old Lhasa in whatever way he sees fit, just as the Catholic Pope runs the very limited boundaries of Vatican City in whatever way he sees fit. Anyone entering Tibetan Buddhism City requires approval from the Dalai Lama's consular office.

Or for that matter, let's work out a different solution. How about the United States or Europe provide for a fully autonomous Tibetan homeland? Let's give the Dalai Lama the state of Colorado, where Tibetan culture and religion can be fully preserved. The British empire didn't mind carving out part of its holdings for the creation of Israel; why not recreate the effort today for Tibet?

 

It was a quick post and no doubt I just tried to summarize IMO why some may be bothered -- I think that we are only seeing one side of the issue regarding Tibet from the [vocal] Chinese posters which is my primary attempt at a point. I don't intend that post to be indicative of all the views of the Chinese, but you have to admit it is rare to see critical posts regarding the PRC from the majority of Chinese who post here. This is a massive thread and i've probably missed a few critical posts as well.

 

No clue, I've never heard it mentioned anywhere; it's purely the product of my imagination. I personally think the idea of a Tibetan Vatican is a brilliant idea. It would be acceptable to most Chinese, I think. It would have true religious freedom; it can charge pilgrims and/or tourists money in order to sustain itself indefinitely. Tibetan faithful can continue to worship freely, but at the end of the day they always return to live+work+study in a secular, multi-ethnic country.

The Catholic Church was once a powerful temporal force in Europe (and therefore hated/loved/feared depending on where you stood), but its current status seems like a healthy one that everyone (religious or not) accepts. I'd love to see the same for Tibetan Buddhism.

If his mantra was "Tibet is/always will be part of China", I'm satisfied. If his mantra continues to be a repetition of what he says he is "seeking"... I personally am not satisfied, period.

Sound-bites are still not good enough, not when the only detailed vision he's published says things like:

The above was written when he was in his 50s, by the way. Are those really the harsh words of a teenager? It has been more than a decade since that was written. What's replaced the Dalai Lama's vision? If he put the time together to write that document, and if his vision has really changed... then what's his new position? Can we get something more than a sound-bite with arbitrary meaning?

Can we decide what we're looking for here?

Are we looking to restore the ethnic Tibetans to their ancestral homeland? Or is the point preservation of Tibetan religion/culture, which the Dalai Lama insists can only be achieved through genuine autonomy?

 

it is true. It is annoying to see the majority of Chinese supporting China.

It is also true that:
when Chinese support their government= brainwash.
when American support their government=democracy.

For a Chinese, it is very difficult to criticize China because they refuse to "free Tibet to foreign monks" . Don't believe? try to criticize USA government because they don't "free California to Mexican".

FYI, CNN is the best place to find your favorite views and truth about China.

 

It isn't annoying to see Chinese support their country, but it would be nice to have a more open discussion regarding some of the disputed policies of the government.