As in: COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT Now, there are a couple of threads on this board dealing with some comments that Steve made about having to consider a maximum contract offer if/when the Rockets offer one. Question: When does the current CBA expire? And more importantly, do you think the next one will bear any resemblance to the current one, which has been hailed as a 'Slam Dunk' for the owners? If I'm not mistaken, it should expire in, oh,......2 YEARS OR SO! You think Steve is prepared to wait and see if the current pay scale changes signifcantly before he signs a long-term deal, up to and including signing a Duncan-esque 2-3 year deal with the Rockets if he has to. I mean, if you had a choice between: A. Sign a contract that averages $11 million per over the next 6-7 years, grandfathered into the next CBA OR B. (If the 'Max' contract concept is weakened or eliminated in the next CBA) Sign a 2-3 year 'Max' deal and wait to possibly sign a pre-CBA, Mourning-like $20 million per contract down the road What would you choose? EXACTLY!! Let's all just calm down, the season will begin soon enough!!
Whew... talk about a misleading title thread. With all these threads about trading Steve, I thought you were about to suggest shipping him off to the CBA league...
the CBA? what the...isn't it defunct? even if it weren't, i sure hope that was a sarcastic post. otherwise, i'd have to beat you with a bat.
hey, I may be a newbie, but... I guess I still need to learn my smilies... which one is the "yes, I'm writing a sarcastic post" smilie? I'll try to be more careful in the future... (insert sarcastic smilie here)
First, many of us are "calm" and just want to discuss this because (1) some like to analyze quotes from our star versus meaningless stats and mind-boggling trade scenarios for Curry, and (2) the discussion does have some nice CBA and "what if" scenarios involving a first-ever rejection of an extension. Unbelievable that many on this board get all fussy with the idea to even talk about it. <b>Steve is not waiting out the CBA</b> To answer your question: (1) the owners can force this agreement through June 30th, 2005; (2) Stevie will have to sign at least a 3yr contract after his 4th season, or take a 1 yr Qualifying Offer for low, low pay (ie, a qualifying offer that didn't receive an Offer Sheet); and (3) if Stevie thinks the Union will break up the salary cap to produced Mourning and Garnet-esque contracts once again....he is making a costly bet against the owners. I think your idea goes way against history of owner negotiations, and is simply wrong about Stevie maximizing pay given he will face at least another 3yr contract before the CBA expires. Besides, Steve said money was not the issue. Was he lying? Fact is: the first 4 max contracts from rookie scale players in the new CBA were extensions. Say Odom and Brand sign one; how will it look if Francis doesn't? <b>Qualifying Offers don't always happen</b> Contrary to popular opinion from the media: Qualifying Offers for players deserving 200-300% raises are not viewed highly by players. It basically is a dis to the player by saying...well let's see if anyone offers you more. This is borne out in the fact that Rashard Lewis and Mobley were never restricted free agents, because they were never tendered the limited Qualifying Offer. And please, don't anyone post links saying they were restricted. That is misinformation by the media. If you don't believe me, search for Qualifying Offer and try to find one tendered to Lewis or Mobley.
As I remember it, the Sonics MADE a qualifying offer to Rashard Lewis, which pretty much precluded him from signing elsewhere 2 years ago. The act of tendering the QO restricts the free agency, the player doesn't have to accept it. Sonics eventually signed him to his present deal, which was not the QO. And I think the burden of proof is on you to show that the Sonics didn't tender an offer sheet to Rashard Lewis, as was widely reported in the national media. Pretty much the same scenario in which the Warriors have chased away possible suitors for Marc Jackson this offseason. Someone will have to ante up more than the midlevel exception, or risk the Warriors matching the offer sheet. The whole point of restricted free agency is to ensure that teams have a chance to get compensated for developing young players- to prevent situations like the ones the Raptors found themselves in last year with Tracy McGrady. PS the Clippers exercised their right of first refusal to retain Tyrone Nesby.
Thanks for the info, HeyP. I was under the impression that the CBA was set to expire in the next 2 or 3 seasons, and that the players union had the option of opening up the CBA for negotiation. Guess I was wrong. But I'm still interested to see if Steve, or any other player, is willing to wait out the CBA. Just because no one has tried doesn't mean it can't happen. (I'll admit, this is highly improbable) Now as far as not being too alarmed at Steve's comments, remember that Carter was pretty much making the same comments anytime he was asked about signing an extension in Toronto. The media literally had him playing in DC in 2003! And yet, he signed his extension, partly because of his belief in the organization and the city\fans, partly because of personnel moves, partly because of the CBA. I'm willing to wait and see how Steve's situation shakes out before making any judgments.
Live, Again, I enjoy talking about these scenarios. I enjoy examining quotes by stars and their agents. It is fun to me. It is more fun than reading trade rumors and statistics. So, hopefully no one is going to feel compelled to jump into this thread and tell me that I'm losing my head or overreacting....like this bbs doesn't overreact to all trade rumors and lose its collective head. To each his own. First, Vince Carter never implied that he'll have to wait and see. He played it like he knew everyone was going to try their best to be competitive, including him. He was always trying to get his teammates to stay. He lost Tracy McGrady and didn't let it faze him into not beating New York in the playoffs. And look how the media still speculated about his possibilities leaving. This would have amplified had he rejected an extension. My point is not what happened to Vince Carter; my point is can you imagine what would have happened had Carter rejected the extension...or Pierce, or Nowitzki, or Jamison. My other point is that Toronto would not give him a $4m Qualifying Offer for one-year. It can likely hurt you. Fly...the national media never reported a Qualifying Offer. You say it was widely reported. It wasn't. What was widely "reported" was the idea that he was restricted. You will find no mention of an Qualifying Offer tendered to Mobley or Lewis. However, you can find one for Lee Nailon, Brad Miller, Todd MacCullough, Ruben Patterson, Leon Smith, and several others. Plus, in other sports like Hockey you can see for yourself how the restricted signings are reported differently than unrestricted signings.
I think you're misunderstanding the CBA rules on restricted free agents. Your interpretation seems to be that if a team makes a "qualifying offer" to establish its right of first refusal (i.e., its right to match other teams' offers), then it can sign the player for a higher salary only by matching another team's offer. Why should making one offer prevent the original team from making a higher offer as long as it has the cap room (or an exception) to do so?
Swopa, You're right...a team can negotiate a separate contract, but I don't see any qualifying offers made to Mobley, Lewis and Jackson...do you? Without a qualifying offer you become an unrestricted free agent. One thing is for sure, I can find no Qualifying Offer made to anyone who signed a higher contract without a Offer Sheet being matched. I'm checking some more to see if the current team can change the principal terms of the contract to an Offer Sheet....that is, the length of years.
I think that because the "qualifying offer" is a formality to establish the matching rights -- rather than a serious offer the player is expected to accept -- teams don't bother to issue press releases about it. Can you imagine how easily misunderstood such a press release would be? I can imagine Bay Area talk radio stations making hay about how "the Warriors insulted Marc Jackson by only offering him $500,000," etc. But here's an example you can check out. At the beginning of the free agency period, Mark Cuban said the Mavericks would match any offer made to Calvin Booth -- implying that they had established their matching rights by making a qualifying offer. After Booth signed with Seattle (for a greater amount than Dallas could match) and the Mavs signed Evan Eschmeyer, I believe Cuban said they had offered Booth the same contract that Eschmeyer signed. So you've got Seattle making an offer to Booth on the assumption that Dallas had matching rights, and Dallas making an offer for significantly more than the qualifying offer. Please explain.
Players opting out of their Player Options (like Mo) is a formality, too, but they report those. Team Options being excercised are a formality, but they report those.
Uhhh... that's exactly what he did. He refused to commit last summer, mentioning that his options were open. Gee, this seems vaguely familiar. Hmmm... And you would have overreacted and suggested trading his ass if you were a Toronto fan last summer. LOL! Oh yeah, but that's not your point. Your point is "she might break up w/ me... better to ditch her ass first. Oh yeah point 2 is that everyone underestimates Mobley. Point three is that Steve runs a break on the wing... and here's some qualifying offer nonsense to confuse the point". LOL!!! Gee, Stevie might reject the qualifying offer. Mobley might tear his ACL and MCL and Achilles and his lungs might collapse all before training camp!!! I'm scared! Being a fantasy gm is soooo hard!!! Trade them all! Trade every last one of them!!!
Here are the links on the Dallas example I mentioned: Mavericks intend to match any offer to Booth Booth is a restricted free agent, meaning that he isn't free to leave Dallas unless another team offers a salary starting at more than about $4.5 million. The Mavericks have made re-signing the 250-pounder center a priority. "We will match any offer Calvin gets," Mavericks owner Mark Cuban said yesterday. "No ifs, ands or buts about it." Sonics' offer to Booth prevents Mavericks from matching Mavericks coach/general manager Don Nelson had hoped that he would be able to retain Booth, who is a restricted free agent. But because Seattle's first-year salary offer of $4.539 million exceeded the $4.538 million mid-level exception - the most the Mavericks could offer Booth in the first year of his contract - the 6-foot-11 center was able to change teams. The Mavericks have 15 days to match Seattle's offer, but Nelson says that won't happen. "It's a sad day for me because I absolutely love coaching him and anticipated a long relationship with him," Nelson said of Booth. "But that's over now. He's a SuperSonic. "We were going to match any offer, but [Seattle] took that away. We couldn't match when he went over the [$4.538 million] limit." Booth turned down 6-year, $20M offer from Mavericks Eschmeyer, meanwhile, earned a six-year, $20 million contract that was on terms that Calvin Booth would not accept before he left for Seattle.
Achebe, Dude, I just like to discuss player/agent quotes. It is fun to me. It tells me about their personality as much as oeilpere threads tell you what Rudy and CD are thinking. That is what I like about basketball. Following the quotes and personalities. I don't follow stats that much, and I don't follow trade rumors. I follow the personalities, because I feel like I know them, then. to each his own...I don't see you telling oeilpere he is overreacting to talks of Curry, and I don't see you even addressing my issues with why you think Francis is ready to judge anyone when he is still learning his position. My whole issue with it was I just don't think he is in a position to judge....no matter how serious he was. Turn my **** all around like a crank....get off it. Swopa, So, it would take Francis 5yrs to be unrestricted, if we didn't want him to be. He'd have to accept $4.xM for his 5th year to do that, though...or force a trade. What do you think he would do if the wuv fest ended? I don't see him accepting the one yr Qualifying Offer, nor do I see him forcing a trade going down too well in trade value. I am still of the belief that if he is serious....this is all about making certain he does not reject an extension.
crispee, I think oeilpere knows he's a spaz talking about Curry. If he doesn't I'm sure he'll take the following quote to heart: "oeilpere, you're a spazz when it comes to Curry", or my drive by quote: "my mommy doesn't let me eat chocolate". That's because I don't think he's ready to judge others when he is still learning his position. I would think that he was ready to judge others if he knew what he was doing next summer, spazz.
So, that was my conversation. Nice that it took you this long to respond. And further, if he knows what he is doing to perfection, we will make the playoffs like he wants without the wuv fest. Then he'd be that cocky b*stard that I first mentioned. No one has to listen to me when I say that Francis is not a leader, yet, and my use of reading personalities through quotes to help measure it along with their play. You know. It is like reading quotes from any celebrities. People like to know what they are thinking, and try to imagine their personality. AND, people like to see if anyone else is reading it the same way. Sorry I treaded our your viewpoint. I guess that I'm just weird in my fascination with quotes to decipher the true superstar mentalities. Why are you so bent out of shape that you keep chasing me around into another thread? btw: Mobley was pretty stupid in his "Steve and I lead, and everyone else follows." And I think that shows he has immature leadership qualities (if any), but he is a cocky b*stard. Does that piss you off?
No, but I like hawks more than doves (sorry, I just read a paper on game theory... btw, doves are aggressive, but it was an economist doing evolutionary stable strategy... what are you gonna do...). BTW2, I think Francis is a hawk too (at least on the court)... he's just doing a great job of playing a dove w/ the media. He's just trying to get out of the shadow of the Vancouver mishap. From my experience w/ a tight family, I'd also bet that his grandmother watches what he says and he therefore chooses his words to avoid offending her or incurring her wrath.
