So when did Miller get injured, unless your talkin about last year in which case the Kings finished the regular season 14-11 without Brad Miller sounds like quite a drop off to me Dick its true you can ask kings fans themselves on the ESPN boards I know I did. They said when Artest came Adelman had to change his offensive scheme that would suit Artest game. If you think a coach adjusting to his personel is idiotic then I suggest you never persuit coaching, atleast not in the NBA. You did Why do you constantly come up with bull**** arguments? Looky here dumbass http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=231029023 Click on that boxscore that was Brads 1st regular season game with the kings and I think youll notice he started alongside of Vlade and Webber was nowhere to be found. His assist went up because his passing skills were utilized. I agree its useless in an argument involving all nba teams but I was showin you how they faired against offensive centers because you were sayin the sample size was too small either way my argument stands without it. SO PER is stupid? Nice to know Once again let me correct you Shaqs performance was on par with Yaos only Shaq won more games so that was my reasoning for Shaq bein 1st team. This is where your wrong I never once said Yao was a lousy defender just not as good as shaq, keep em coming man you get shut down so easily. No I said Shaq gets them into foul trouble and that Yao cant stay on the floor. And you allready lied about Yao not getting into foul trouble so why should I believe anything you say? So I guess teams decided they should go longer without their starting C against Shaq as a strategy right, wheras teams find them more effective against Yao. And yet this doesnt help show that Yao is the less effective defender. Show me what I have dropped you have no idea how stupid you look refering to something but not backin it up with a quote or an example of what it is your refering to. Ive shown you much more than 4 games that werent cherry picked. And only a moron such as yourself would claim that both teams would purposely play their starting centers against Shaq as a strategy in an attempt to win the game. Please tell me why they happen to average more minutes against Yao and not against Shaq? You cant because it will expose your weak argument. I also showed you their points per 48 allowed throughout the season in which case Yao gave up 14.4 to Shaqs 9.0 is that the same rate as well? 9.0 > 14.4 Thats what Yao gave up to opposing centers per 48, and thats everyone hes matched up with. So you can go ahead and drop the Miller and Z argument because it was only 1 of several points. He got lit up by those centers and more. Nope I never once did this please quote me where I did, or are you scared that you might be lying yet again? Yet you respong with one very long post, yea congrats on proving my point that you contradict yourself. Only I backed it up with what they allowed against every C in a year whereas you cherry picked games you wanted. I simply chose the only offensive centers that Yao and Shaq gaurded a big difference. Mine werent randomly chosen I chose the only 2 centers they matched up against which were offensive minded. Either way its a moot point because I further backed up my argument with what they allowed against every C they ever matched up with in the regular season. Once again 9.0>14.4 Only you didnt back it up with what they allowed throughout the regular season, dumbass Too bad it doesnt hold true Yao allowed 14.4pts per 48 minutes Shaq allowed 9.0 rather interesting isnt it dumfuk. No dik only a dumbass like you would come to that conclusion, I never once said Brad had a post game and I have no Idea how you came to that conclusion but I guess thats the point of your arguments. You "choose" not to quote what I say because you rather make up what I post. No dik you b****ed about it bein so small and when I showed it to you on a larger scale you b**** again. Thats why its b****ing I can understand 1 but when its both its obvious your b****ing because your mad at the results. No its just you, others have agreed or debated intelligently with me, your the only one whos takin everything to the butt I would have nothing to say, but if your basing your argument on Hypotheticals you will lose everytime. Thats like tryin to discredit Tayshaun and Chauncey for having Big Ben on their team. I didnt blame anyone dik, I just accused you of lying which turned out to be true. No I expanded on my argument and found out that (GASP) Yao actually allowed more points than Shaq throughout the regular season. I think you would find it interesting that I never once said Brad Miller was the reason Yao got into foul trouble rather I said Yao couldnt stay on the floor in general then again a dumbass like you would never dare to quote what I ACTUALLY SAID because it would expose you for the fraud that you are. No Z makes up 1 center that Yao allowed to score more than Shaq did so no he wasnt dropped. Youve been getting shut down son, I used more than 1 game in fact I used 6 or 7 and the statistics showed Z has been scoring more on Yao than Shaq throughout their careers so why do you keep coming back to this? Hey dumbass whos disputing the fact that Yao gets tired, Im not the one who happened to use minutes per game as a reason Yao played less than Miller when it has been shown that against other players who averaged more minutes than Yao happened to play less than him. If it can go one way it can go the other. Maybe if you were to actually read what Ive been sayin you wouldnt look so stupid, I said Shaq was worthy based on the similar season they had and the fact that Shaq played better defense than Yao doesnt hurt his chances but mostly because Yao didnt do enough offensively to overlook Shaqs wins. I even went as far as sayin if Yao had avg what he was averagine in the 2nd half of the season he wouldve been 1st team, I even said if there was an all nba second half of the season team Yao would be on it. So you tired of getting owned or will you resort to lying again? Seriously quit bein a b**** and quote my exact posts it will keep you from lookin like a moron.
Yeah man Im not disputing that Im just suggesting that if your not getting the defensive rebound chances are your teammate is. Wheras offensive rebound requires much more work.
Look MWF seein as how you get easily confused let me make this as easy as possible so you only have to respong to 1 post and you can quote me directly on 1 subject. Also I will have you know I ****ed up on one of my post Shaq allowed 13.5 Pts per 40, not 9.0 I misread PER for pts, anyways heres the argument as it stands. Here is why I think Shaq had a better year defensively than Yao Shaq had a higher shotblocking average and rate. Shaq Allowed 13.5pts and a PER of 9 Yao Allowed 14.4 and a PER of 11.6 Now what reasoning do you have to counter what Ive said, why do you think Yao had a better season defensively? Seriously if you cant answer this simple question then why are we even debating? If you dont back up what your sayin then you have no argument in which case Ive won. So what do you have to say in your defense? Please dont resort to lies because I will be checking everything and anything you say.
I think the team defense, with both players on the court, is a better measure of their defensive value than counterpart production. A center's primary defensive responsibility is to stop the opposing team from scoring, not just his man (centers are rarely a primary offensive threat). The Rocket's team defense with Yao was better than the Heat's team defense with Shaq.
Can you provide a link for your statistics? Also, you posted: So basically, you said Shaq gives up 13.5 points per 40 minutes and Yao gives up 14.4 per 48 minutes? You do realize that it translates into Shaq giving up 16.2 points per 48 minutes?
Well we were discussing which was the better man defender , and I hope your not suggesting the plus minus ratio because it would punish Shaq for having Zo as his backup. But in terms of the teams defensive efficiency both are in the top 10 houston bein ranked 8th to miami's 9th. Good eye, I meant 48 for both and if you want the link its Yaos : http://www.82games.com/0506/05HOU21C.HTM Shaq : http://www.82games.com/0506/05MIA17C.HTM
Actually the stat for Shaq is WRONG. He did not allow a PER of 9.0, it was listed between 16-18 throughout the season. In fact I reference it in one of the earlier posts in this thread, where I ended the debate. Yao has always allowed between 10-11 PER throughout the year, increasing in the 2nd half of the season when he was exerting alot of energy offensively.
If you could prove it I would gladly accept it as fact but I need the facts. Was the pts per 48 allowed incorrect as well?
According to 82games, the Rockets allowed 103.3 points/100poss with Yao on the court, while the Heat allowed 107.2 points/100poss with Shaq on the court. That's a significant difference.
Not that big of a margin, but if I were to say with Yao the Rockets score 104.6 whereas the Heat score 114.1 would that meen Shaq is the better offensive player? I think its not a tell all stat but definately worth considering combined with what they allow and their shot blocking rate I wouldnt say Yao has had a better season defensively, if anything its as close as it can get.
That would be a false argument because a player's offensive ability is MUCH MUCH more easily measured by stats than a player's defensive ability. Scoring is pretty much told by ppg, FG% and FT% (although it STILL doesn't tell the whole story). Defense on the other hand, goes WAAAAAY beyond blocks and steals. If you want proof, check out Rodman's blocks and steals stats.
while shaq's opposing C PER appears to be 9.0, when 82games.com lists PER, opponents PER, and PER differential, shaq's is listed as 12 compared to 12.5 for yao. still better, but not by the margin suggested earlier. it's always difficult to tell what such esoteric stats mean, especially when talking about defense, but perhaps yao's team D helps him out more there. oh, and shaq wins PER and PER differential, so maybe he should be 1st team. and yao also wins DRtg 100 to 102 and ORtg 113 to 108. so while shaq may be the better man defender, yao appears to deserve the 1st team selection.
I agree it's not a tell all stat. There's a much wider disparity between the offensive abilities of the Heat and Rockets (outside Shaq and Yao) than the defensive abilities. So, I think the on-court defensive +/- tells much more about Shaq and Yao as defensive players than their on-court offensive +/- tells about their offensive game. That said, my opinion is they're about equal in their defensive effectiveness, but I think Shaq is a better offensive player. I know the individual stats may not say that, but I do think Shaq's presence on the offensive end open up things much more for his teammates than Yao's presence does for the Rockets.
Don't you think that maybe, just maybe that Shaq has had better players/shooters around him than Yao this season? -G'day-
He isnt worthy of 1st team because both he and Shaq have had similar statistics, so similar that you cannot look away from the huge edge shaq has in wins. Now if Yao were to seperate himself with say 25ppg and 11 rebounds then which would meen a higher REB Rate, PER, etc... then you could argue but with Statistics like these Shaq has had the better year.
Yeah which is why they say players make other players better. KG made Sam an All Star, and Sam made KG an MVP. So if your argument is that Yao had no one to make him better and vice versa you would be correct. But because of the fact that Shaq did have players around him that he could utilize he is more deserving of 1st team.
So you agree that they have had about as similar a year 2 players can have. Except 1 player is about to reach the finals where we are currently awaiting the draft.
I don't think team performance is a fair criteria. It should only be used to determine "tie-breakers". In this Shaq-Yao situation it may have some credence since the 2 were very close this year but should have no bearing if comparing Yao to Ben Wallace. Miami and Detroit were waaaaaaay better than the Rockets. Not even close. The way some people claim (not necessarily you) that Ben is better because his team is better is kind of like saying Antoine Walker > TMac. Antoine Walker has been in the Eastern finals more than once. Fact of the matter is, switching Yao and Ben Wallace makes Detroit even better and makes Houston the worst team of all time. Switching Yao and Shaq would probably have had negligible effect on either team.
1. Gee, I'm guessing that Miller only played 72 games that season because Adelman felt the need to keep him out right? But alright, let's talk about last year. 14-11 is what, a win % of 56%? For the whole season the Kings were 61%. That's a 5% drop. But I guess by your standard, anything is significant. Now by the way, since Brad Miller is the catalyst of the Kings offence according to you, why did Adelman only start him 53 of the 72 games he played? 2. Who's the idiot here, that's funny. The idiots on ESPN know what Adelman thinks? Only a moron such as yourself would know that. If reading minds is that easy then it must be really easy to be a head coach. You just read each other's minds. All coaches make adjustments to their game plan when they get new players. Quite simply, it is the coaches job to maximize a player's total output. But only to an idiot like you does that equate letting somebody like Ron Artest be the playmaker, suplementing the previous "playmaker" of Brad Miller. Of course, even if we assume that Artest really replaced Miller as the playmaker, it still doesn't change the fact it would make Miller a lousy catalyst if Ron freakin' Artest is a better one. 3. Like I said, you're an idiot. 4. I must have remembered this part wrong. Oh well. But unfortunately for you, it still does not change the fact that Brad Miller CAME OFF THE BENCH for 19 games, thereby making it a joke to everybody but you that he is the catalyst. 5. Really, a brain dead person would have gotten this point by now. It's gotten to the point that calling you a moron is an insult to that group, because you are way dumber than even that. The sample size IS too small, thereby making it IMPOSSIBLE to draw a conclusion. However, using career stats IS inappropriate. Why? Quite f*ckin' simple to anybody but idiots like you. The All NBA teams are based on performance THIS YEAR. It may very well be that Shaq has been the better defender in previous years, but none of that is RELEVENT because they DO NOT IMPACT THIS YEAR. 6. Sounds pretty clear to me. But then again, we really don't have any high expectation of your reading comprehension skills by now do we? How about a rephrase then: Stupid (that'll be you), I did acknowledge your PER stat. or maybe: I did acknowledge your PER stat, stupid. 7. As mentioned repeatedly by countless other people (in which you were too stupid to read), the All NBA teams are based on individual performance. 8. Let me rephrase again. Shaq averages 0.144 fouls per minute against Miller and Z. Yao averages 0.122 fouls per minute against these same 2 players. Shaq played 111 minutes against these 2 and Yao played 139 minutes. So when you claim that Yao can't stay on the floor against Miller and Z and that he gets in foul trouble instead of Shaq, what does that make you? Give me an M, give me an O, give me an R, give me an O, give me an N. Whoooooooo. 9. This part is just funny. Alternatively we could say that because Yao stays on the floor longer, other teams HAVE TO keep their starting C in the games longer to guard him; or we could say Shaq has trouble guarding the other teams' starting C, that's why he gets in foul trouble can't we? You can spin it any way you want, doesn't change the fact that Shaq got in foul trouble more than Yao did, completely tossing aside your claims. 10. Gee, when you challenge me to do something, shouldn't you at least make it challenging. But alright, let me ask you this: When pointed out to you CLEARLY, in NO uncertain terms that Shaq fouls more against Miller and Z AND that Yao plays more minutes against both, why do you still insist that Yao is the one that CAN'T stay on the floor against them? Also, when you said other teams' C, you really meant your cherry picked Miller and Z don't you? Go ahead, I'm waiting to hear about this one. 11. Yeah idiot you did show me more than 4 cherry picked games. You used career stats which for the 50 millionth time is INAPPROPRIATE AND IRRELEVANT. I really get sick of repeating myself. And you can't possibly be this stupid. IF other teams DON'T play their starting C against Shaq, who the hell do they play against him? Leave him unguarded? Usually the other teams' starting C get help guarding Shaq by cheating doubles, triple teams when he get the ball, fronting, etc. This is the same strategy which they use against Yao. 12. Like I said, learn to read. Responding to your moronic posts and separating different parts of your moronic post (think of it as responding to your moronic posts seriously) are two completely different concepts. I respond to your moronic posts because I enjoy torturing imbeciles like you. I don't bother responding to your post seriously because my purpose of torturing braindead imbeciles is already satisfied by merely responding. I don't have to waste my time taking it seriously. The reason you think there is an inherent contradiction here is because you are a moron and you can't read. 13. Ha ha ha, this is funny. So you DIDN'T use Deke's 1 game against Miller tihs season to show how Miller averaged less against Deke IN 1 GAME than he averages against Yao? Forgot about that did we? Like I said, when you bullsh1t, you are liable to not being able to keep your own bullsh1t straight. Also like I said, Deke at least used to be former DPOY. I'm letting you cherry pick any scrub in the league. 14. Stupid, why would I back it up with what they allowed over the season? Deke ONLY played 1 game against Miller so you don't use more than 1 game's worth of stats for comparison. But even if we DO use season averages, Kandiman allowed Miller to score 0, 10 and 7 points, clearly making him the best defensive 5 in the league by your moronic logic. 15. No moron, I didn't *****. I told you WHY using career stats is INAPPROPRIATE. If every game Yao and Shaq played against Miller and Z in their career occurred THIS YEAR then it would be fine. You call it b1tching because you are a moron and do not every understand how to select appropriate stats. 16. Just me? Let's see, bulk actually used the term to call you a moron. ZBoy called debating with you cand RocketMac is like debating with 5 year olds. Alaskansnowman called it (I quote) "some major pwnage conducted by MFW." ToothYanker (and another person, can't remember who) responded "good post" to me. So why is it that you think it's just me? Well: a) You are a moron b) You can't read 17. So are you saying that having good defenders on your team doesn't help? It doesn't discredit Prince or Billups at all. They are good defenders. Having Big Ben on their team just made them even better. 18. So you just found out that Yao allowed more points than Deke over the entire season? That's good to know. Considering that plays under 15MPG, I'd be pretty disappointed in him if he allowed a higher average than Yao. 20. Now see, we are back to square 1 again aren't we? How typical of you to use circular idiocy to bring us back to this point when you are getting owned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but PER stats DOES NOT measure a player's team defense. That to start makes this an incomplete comparison. Furthermore, also correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never said and you acknowledged that I've never said that Yao is the better defender. Good to know that you can disacknowledge this fact when you are running out of arguments. Now, we are back to this point again aren't we? SHOW ME HOW SHAQ'S BETTER DEFENCE MEANS HE DESERVES THE 1ST TEAM WHEREAS YAO DOES NOT DESPITE YAO HAVING BETTER OFFENSIVE STATS. No really. You have such a "solid" case, why bother dodging questions and use circular logic? I also remind you (because I realize that you will conveniently forget again) that All NBA teams are based on individual performance. 21. Me the fraud? This is just hilarious. What does the fact that Yao both plays more and fouls less against Miller and Z say about your argument that he can't stay on the floor? It says that your argument is trash and you are a moron. 22. Of course not, you just conveniently dropped every other C in the league. 23. Look in the mirror. Take a real hard good look cuz you are about to go head deep in bullsh1t. Of course, how typical that I have to remind you that career stats mean jack. 24. Wait a second, are you saying that if a player plays more minutes, he should average fewer points? Also, using your moronic logic, it is quite clear that any 3rd string 5 in the league are far superior to both Shaq and Yao on defense. Why? They never get off the bench. The opposing C average 0 points against them over any sample size. It doesn't mean jack **** that other 5's may average more against Yao and others less. There is a reason it's called an AVERAGE. If every stat is higher than the average then there will be A HIGHER AVERAGE. But it does matter whether an opposing 5 scores more or less against Yao and Shaq based on the minutes played. 25. Maybe you should bother to learn to read, All NBA teams are BASED ON INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE. Now here's the thing: you can't read, calling you a moron is an insult to the morons and everytime you open your mouth people have to question what's that smell. What the hell are you still responding for? To get another ass whipping?
