It's crazy that the usa had to build a brand new pier just to deliver aid bcz the Israelis refused to allow basic humanitarian aid into the country. At the same time they receive more aid than any other country in the world from us @Nook
Netanyahu has no long term plan other than to take as much land as possible from the Palestinians and to keep them weak and vulnerable. He survives on the conflict with the Palestinians. Hamas has no long term plan other than killing Jews to keep the conflict with Israel going and to make them relevant. Honestly - the USA needs to just stop sending money and support to Israel and Palestine. The USA can support Kuwait and other nations that are actually allies and do not cause the issues that Israel does.
Yeah - because that is how that happens. "Hey we know the Jews stole our land and pushed us out and have subrogated us to apartheid conditions - but we are going to let that go and instead all of us get together and turn on Palestinians that are members of HAMAS. I know that they are murders and monsters and rule where we live - but lets go get them out as a hive mind, because as people that is what we do." As a prosecutor you should know that isn't how people operate in mass. They used to say the same thing to Italians about the Mafia as well.
It is hard to find two groups of people that hate each other as much as the Palestinians and the Zionist Israelis. What I find amazing is that I have Israeli friends who will argue with me that Israeli's do not have Palestinians and are not bigoted against them and are "stunned" and "don't understand" why some Palestinians hate Israeli's some much.
Really? Hamas planned an attack on Israel. They figured out how to breach the Israeli defenses and murdered as many Israeli's as they could and kidnapped and raped Israeli women. Hamas felt completely justified in what they did - and would do it again if they could. Outlandish statements don't do anyone any good. Hamas is a terrorist organization that murders people and rapes others.
Have you seen the videos of "civilians" streaming across the breached border and kidnapping Israeli women? And crowds cheering at kidnapped/murdered Israelis being paraded? Either they are all Hamas, or civilians were involved.
Except Colonel Dyer didnt wait. He used the same logic that you’re applying that they all do them either we’re violent extremists or going to become them. Israel’s blockade wasn’t just military equipment but also included things like concrete and other building material. People in Gaza had to get those things also through tunnels and other smuggling. That’s an interesting argument for someone who opposes most gun control regulation but it also defies human nature. Further Hamas has the example of what happened to the PA that stopped attacking Israel but didn’t improve things in the Weat Bank. I agree and why I’ve criticized Hamas several times that said given October 7 did happen and the IDF has had to go launch incursions into Gaza several times Israel’s policies doesn’t appear to make things safer for themselves. it has been documented several times in this thread that Likud helped Hamas to undermine the PA and other Palestinian groups. Further Israel has continued to build settlements and seize land, in some cases even against Israel’s own laws, which has further undermined the PA. You in this very post acknowledge that the PA did make peace with Israel which shows it isn’t a fantasy that not all Palestinians thinks the same or are unwilling to make peace. Yes the PA isn’t perfect and certainly should be criticized but again if things are working so good for Israel why did October 7 even happen? Why are they suffering from rockets attacks and other terrorism frequently? even though your from the outside you’re only looking at it form one side.
How it happens is what is happening now. How is that working out for them? Maybe they should follow my plan instead. That would be how lasting peace happens, yes. I see it all the time with modern street gangs. The people in the neighborhood hate the police, support the gangs, refuse to testify, and end up living in a war zone. The people in the neighborhoods where the citizens are on the side of the police, call all the time when issues happen, and come in to testify tend to have safer, and more pleasant neighborhoods to live in. Supporting the gangs and opposing the police doesn't lead to good outcomes. I know, that is why I was drawing a distinction. Except the logic I am applying is to wait until they become extremists before attacking them. They didn't manage to blockade rockets, so I don't think they would be more effective against concrete (which of course also has military application in (wait for it) building tunnels. What does gun regulation have to do with actual rocket bombardment. I don't oppose laws against attempted murder. Are things not better in the West Bank? Do they not have relative peace? Is the West Bank also an "open air prison"? Except that they are quite safe, and the largest attack (October 7) came after a long period of relative peace from the IDF (not from Gaza, who continued to fire rockets). The last major air campaign had been in 2021, the last major land campaign in 2014. Lack of operations in Gaza allowed Hamas to build up their infrastructure and equipment. Wait, did they work with the PA or not work with the PA? Are they required to work exclusively with the PA? If they oppose some PA things (say capturing an Israeli and murdering him at a police station) but also give money to the PA and allow the PA to have their own security apparatus, does that count as working with the PA or not? Because they pulled out of Gaza in 2005. Yes, the factual side. Do you think the Palestinians have made optimal choices, especially in Gaza and the West Bank?
For a Libertarian, you really do not understand people in mass well. Perhaps the millions of Palestinians should go against human nature and listen to you? You know quite well that is not realistic. Street gangs are an example of human nature. When conditions improve, street gangs struggle. I too know street gangs very very well. I played a big part in putting an entire generation of young black men in prison for murder, robbery and drug trafficking. We put so many black men in jail for 20+ years, that between what we did and shootings… you couldn’t find more than a handful of black men between 30-45 years old on the Southside of Chicago. The outcome? Didn’t make a damn bit of a difference. There were more poor black men to repeat the cycle. Yet it’s human nature.
That fact that human nature is dumb doesn't mean we should reward acting dumb. Successful people go against human nature all the time. People have to choose to make smart, moral, forward-looking, etc. choices instead of doing what comes naturally. I don't support accommodating poor choices because it is "human nature".
Yes - and the vast majority that fail to play by your self selected logic call to the wayside. Perhaps a better option would be limiting or eliminating terrible conditions that breed situations like Palestine or the Southside of Chicago.
It isn't my self-selected logic, it is just actual logical consequences of cause and effect. Or, we could allow people to make choices, and the good choices (eating vegetables, working hard at a job, getting married before having children) would lead to good outcomes (being healthy, having money, not being a struggling single parent), and the bad choices (eating junk food, relying on becoming a famous rapper, attacking a country that has a powerful military with your rag tag band of terrorist friends) would lead to bad outcomes (getting fat, being poor, getting yourself and thousands of the people you are using as human shields killed).
If you live for generations having your ancestral home occupied, not allowed to have your own competitive business, given less water than the people that take or demolish your homes, can be attacked and murdered by those people, but aren't allowed to arrest them, and are denied water by these occupiers, chances are that you won't blame your government when those oppressive forces start bombing you and killing your neighbors, children, and family. That is true, even if you don't want the innocents in that occupying oppressive nation murdered. The first priority is going to be worrying about getting water and you and your surviving family. Odds are once those conditions are removed, and the pain and bitterness isn't so fresh, removing the crap leadership will be more of a priority. But that will never come first on the list.
And yet you really should, because there is an obvious cause and effect from October 7th to the war in Gaza. They overwhelmingly do support the innocents in that "occupying oppressive nation" being murdered though. Nope, the priority will be attacking Israel, just like it always has been. When they are on television telling everyone that they encourage all of their children to be martyrs for Allah, why does everyone refuse to believe them? Here is the deputy chairman of Fatah (the group that runs the oh so moderate PA) less than a year before the October 7th attack: The moderates sure seem to support the terrorists.
The average Palestinian didn't plan Oct. 7th. It wasn't something they voted for or put in a suggestion box prior to the attack. 50% of the Palestinians weren't even voting age the last time there was a vote. But they will all remember the collective punishment they've suffered. You seem to have fallen in with the 'blame all for the actions of a few' line of reasoning. Bottom line is that Israel's actions aren't making their citizens safer.
Except you've justified the killing of civilians as that they might become the next generation of Hamas. How do you know anymore than Colonel Dyer did that some child getting bombed is going to be an extremist? That is making my point regarding how Gaza's economy has been crippled and that the Gazans have to rely upon a literal underground economy even just to do things like repair their homes. Some other posters have touched on this but it has to do with your previous views regarding the right to self defense and that people have the right to use whatever means they can for self-defense. They are marginally better but the Palestinian economy there is also crippled and as noted Israel still routinely takes Palestinian lands and Israeli settlers have killed several Palestinians. Palestinians there also don't have freedom of movement either and can't easily leave the West Bank. YOu really think they are quite safe after over a thousand were killed on Oct. 7 and several hundred taken hostage? Also 2021 wasn't that long ago. Gaza was still blockaded, surveilled and controlled by Israel before Oct. 7 and even as you acknowledge Israel still previously had to go into Gaza every few years or so. Are you now saying that Israel should've remained permanently in Gaza? Note even when they occupied Gaza there was still terrorism and rocket fire. "work with" is subjective but yes the PA has made peace with Israel. Wouldn't make more sense to work more closely with the group that has made peace with Israel and do things like stopping settlement building to give support to that group? This is the facts that you ignore is that while yes the PA deserves criticism but it's very obvious that Israel has undermined them. It's also been well documented that Israel has been supporting Hamas to keep the Palestinians divided. And where there terrorist attacks out of Gaza when they occupied it? Except for the facts you either aren't aware of or are deliberately ignoring. This is the difference between our views. I fully acknowledge the Palestinians have not made optimal choices and criticize Hamas and the PA. I've called Hamas a death cult and the PA corrupt. That doesn't mean I excuse Israel and say they can do no wrong.
And as has been posted before in this thread there is rhetoric from Israeli politicians supporting killers of Palestinians. There have been calls by Israeli politicians to "erase" Palestinians. https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...ge-an-incitement-violence-us-says-2023-03-01/ "Asked about a weekend settler rampage through the Palestinian village of Huwara, which an Israeli general on Tuesday described as a "pogrom," Smotrich said: "I think that Huwara needs to be erased". Smotrich added: "I think that the state of Israel needs to do it, but God forbid not individual people."" There's been violent extremist rhetoric from both sides which is a fact.
It is unfortunate for them that the people that did plan and carry out the attack operate from among them. They also seem to have overwhelming support from the population. Nope, I am in the "Doing something bad and running and hiding behind a human shield doesn't make you immune from reprisal" camp. Also the, "If your family is killed while being used as a human shield, you should blame the people using you as a human shield, not the people that they attacked who are now retaliating" line of reasoning. I disagree. Hamas's actions aren't making their citizens safer. Israel's actions are doing a great job of making their citizens safer. Actually, I said that they should be killed as and when they become an extremist. I don't, which is why I said they should be killed as and when they become an extremist. It would be great if Israel didn't have to restrict materials with military applications. Unfortunately, they are under constant threat. They certainly do. Israel is using their military for self-defense, and I agree with it. Shockingly, the Israelis don't like being attacked by terrorists. Yes. Just like Americans were quite safe, even after nearly 5,000 were killed on Sept. 11. Not only should they not have withdrawn from Gaza, they should have more proactively eliminated Hamas. The PA has rejected every peace deal with Israel. They haven't made peace. There are still attacks which originate from the West Bank. Yes, though they were less effective and reprisal was easier. Just because I disagree, doesn't mean I am unaware of or ignoring facts. Israel has done plenty wrong. They shouldn't have withdrawn from Gaza. They shouldn't have stopped for a long period before going into Rafah. They shouldn't have directed the people fleeing the north into another city in the south. Etc. I just don't agree that attacking the people that attacked them is wrong, and I don't try to equalize the parties and say sure Hamas is a death cult that attacks civilians, but Israel can't respond because there are also innocent people in Gaza being used as human shields.
