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Hamas attacks Israel: Yom Kippur War, 50 years on

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Oct 7, 2023.

  1. Nook

    Nook Member

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    I would think that Israel has plenty of weapons from the USA - but I heard less than a week ago from Israeli social media supporters that Biden had exposed that Israel did NOT have adequate weapons to take Rafi and as a result Biden put Israeli in grave danger by exposing that Israel did not have adequate weapons.

    Both cannot be true and I am not in the war room for either side, so I don't know - but it seems to me that in the region, Israel has more than enough weapons to take the occupied territory. To me the question is will they be able to hold it long term, which I doubt just because of the amount of outsiders that will attempt to get into Israel.

    Israel has largely been well ran over the last 75 years.
     
  2. tinman

    tinman Contributing Member
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    Israel actually uses our weapons so they are the best live environment for all our defense contractors

    the F-35 has proven to work very well against our enemy, Iran
     
    Nook and AroundTheWorld like this.
  3. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    @Nook were seeing one of the worst military campaigns in modern history play out in front of our eyes. No plan no nothing

    This is what happens when you're supported by morons who blindly bootlick you @AroundTheWorld @ROXRAN
     
    VooDooPope and LosPollosHermanos like this.
  4. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Contributing Member
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    To repeat again since many are making this seem like Biden is cutting off aid completely to Israel. Aid is still going to Israel including ammunition. Biden has said ammunition for Iron Dome will continue.
     
  5. astros123

    astros123 Member

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  6. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Why are they allowed to do that? If I tried to destroy private property, I'd be arrested.
     
  7. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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  8. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Awful.

    edit: everyday I am thankful that I am not a Palestinian.
     
    #10108 Ubiquitin, May 13, 2024
    Last edited: May 13, 2024
    basso likes this.
  9. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Egypt knows what's up with the "Palestinians". They want no part of them.



     
    K9Texan likes this.
  10. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    Are you living under a rock? Violent Israelis have been burning Palestinian homes in west bank for past 8 months. In the past 8 months more Muslims have died in west bank due to extreme violence from Israelis citizens than the total number of Israelis that died in October 7

    Israelis have been burning property and literally shooting innocent folks in west bank for months now. They're crazy

    @AroundTheWorld is a blind sheep who ass licks the right wing regardless of what they do. Just blame hamas for everything
     
    VooDooPope likes this.
  11. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    No way. Can you share a link about that West Bank claim?
     
  12. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Completely untrue and made up. You should rely on better news sources than the Islamist propaganda you clearly consume.
     
    K9Texan likes this.
  13. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    It's total nonsense. He is relying on some "source" that is literally counting every person who died of natural causes in the last half year there as "murdered by Zionists".
     
    K9Texan likes this.
  14. basso

    basso Contributing Member
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    the palestinians are not Palestinians.

    the bedouin Arabs in Judea have been betrayed by the Kingdom of Saud, Transjordan, Syria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Irok, Iroll...

    but the Israelis have only wanted to live in peace.

    they're here, they're not queers for palestine, get used to it.
     
    AroundTheWorld likes this.
  15. astros123

    astros123 Member

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    Between october and april 1 they were a confirmed total of 455 palestians dead in west bank. April was one of the deadliest months so waiting for the full accounting but the number is close to 600-700 as of today. Remember these are folks that had nothing to do with Hamas. Majority of them were killed by the IDF with no evidence. Remember the IDF has the right to shoot someone if they deem them suspicious. The evidence needed to shoot is very very minimum

    https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/t...ement-restrictions-and-collective-punishment/
     
  16. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
    Actual data for any claims being made.

    The final death toll from the attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, giving a total of 1,139.
    https://www.france24.com/en/live-ne...ity-data-reveals-true-picture-of-oct-7-deaths

    In the West Bank:
    Since October 7, 480 Palestinians have died in the West Bank from violence (403 from live ammunition and 51 from air strikes). 5,015 Palestinians have been injured (1950 from tear gas inhalation, 1687 from live ammunition, 652 from physical assault, 227 from rubber bullets, 28 from air strikes).
    16 Israelis have died and 100 Israelis have been injured.
     
    #10116 Ubiquitin, May 13, 2024
    Last edited: May 13, 2024
  17. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    All the same. I am glad I am not a stateless bedouin Arab.
     
  18. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Is Haaretz anti-semetic?
    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...o-israel/0000017f-db53-d3ff-a7ff-fbf3bcc50000
    The twisted logic of the Jewish ‘historic right’ to Israel - Israel News
    Shlomo Sand
    11–14 minutes
    I enjoy the vacillations of Chaim Gans, even if I don’t always understand them. I have the highest esteem for his intellectual honesty – even if at times, perhaps like everyone, he tries to resolve contradictions with lame arguments.

    However, before going into the heart of the matter, I must pause over an annoying mistake – I’m certain that at bottom it’s not deliberately misleading but a folly – concerning my writings. In the article, “From rabid Zionism to egalitarian Zionism” (November 9), Gans writes, “because, according to [Sand], there is purportedly no genetic continuity between ancient and modern Jewry, it follows that the Jewish nationhood engendered by Zionism is a total fabrication, a nationhood created out of thin air.”

    If my assumption that Gans has perused my books is correct, he appears to have read them both too quickly and at a diagonal. Since the publication of my first book "The invention of the Jewish people" a decade ago, I have made a point of emphasizing that it’s not only Jews who don’t possess a common DNA – neither do all other human groups that claim to be peoples or nations – besides which I have never thought that genetics can confer national rights. For example, the French are not the direct descendants of the Gauls, just as the Germans are not the offspring of the Teutons or of the ancient Aryans, even if until a little more than half a century ago many idiots believed just that.

    One trait that all peoples have in common is that they are retroactive inventions with no distinctive genetic "traits." The acute problem that genuinely disturbs me is that I live in a singular political and pedagogical culture that continues persistently to see the Jews as the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews.
    .....
    As I pursued my research, my realization that the Exodus from Egypt never happened and that the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Judah were not exiled by the Romans, left me nonplussed. There is not one study by a historian who specializes in antiquity that recounts that “exile” or any serious historiographic study that reconstructs a mass migration from the place. The “exile” is a formative event that never took place, otherwise it would be the subject of dozens of research studies. Judahite farmers, who constituted an absolute majority of the population at the first century C.E., were not seafarers like the Greeks or the Phoenicians, and did not spread across the world. It was Jahwist monotheism, which since the Hasmonean era had become a dynamic religion engaged in conversion, which laid the foundations for the Jews’ age-old existence around the globe.

    Here’s where we get to the heart of Gans’ arguments. This distinguished jurist and political theorist is not prepared to accept the standard justifications for settlement and for Zionism’s conception of land ownership since the end of the 19th century. He is well aware that such popular propositions would oblige him to justify continuation of the present-day settlement project, and perhaps also to deny the rights of the natives who still remain in "the land of Israel.”

    Gans even knows that there never actually was a Jewish nation, which is why he resorts to the literal image of a “profile” – a surprising and original term in the national context – wholly based on ignorance. For him to understand what Clermont-Tonnerre meant in his famous speech (a subject I addressed in an article in the Haaretz Hebrew edition last August), a perusal of Wikipedia would have sufficed. He’d have learned immediately that by “nation,” the French liberal was referring to a closed, insular religious community. Did the Jews, in contrast, not see themselves as a people or a nation according to the modern usage of these terms?
    ......
    What remains for me, then, is to go on being a-Zionist or post-Zionist while doing what I can to help rescue the place I live in from an ever-intensifying racism, due, among other reasons, to the teaching of a false historical past, fear of assimilation with the Other, revulsion of the indigenous culture and so on. For, as the Turkish poet Nazim Hikmet wrote, “If I don’t burn / if you don’t burn / ... if we don’t burn / how will the light / ... vanquish the darkness?”

    Shlomo Sand is a historian and professor emeritus of Tel Aviv University.
     
  19. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    Br0seph. You are counting people who died of natural causes. This is typical Pallywood propaganda. Complete nonsense.
     
  20. Ubiquitin

    Ubiquitin Contributing Member
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    Shlomo Sand's book:
    The Invention of the Jewish People

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Invention_of_the_Jewish_People

    Book summary
    Sand began his work by looking for research studies about forcible exile of Jews from the area now bordered by modern Israel, and its surrounding regions. He was astonished that he could find no such literature, he says, given that the expulsion of Jews from the region is viewed as a constitutive event in Jewish history. The conclusion he came to from his subsequent investigation is that the expulsion simply did not happen, that no one exiled the Jewish people from the region, and that the Jewish diaspora is essentially a modern invention. He accounts for the appearance of millions of Jews around the Mediterranean and elsewhere as something that came about primarily through the religious conversion of local people, saying that Judaism, contrary to popular opinion, was very much a "converting religion" in former times. He holds that mass conversions were first brought about by the Hasmoneans under the influence of Hellenism, and continued until Christianity rose to dominance in the fourth century CE.[18]

    Jewish origins
    Sand argues that it is likely that the ancestry of most contemporary Jews stems mainly from outside the Land of Israel and that a "nation-race" of Jews with a common origin never existed, and that just as most Christians and Muslims are the progeny of converted people, not of the first Christians and Muslims, Jews are also descended from converts. According to Sand, Judaism was originally, like its two cousins, a proselytising religion, and mass conversions to Judaism occurred among the Khazars in the Caucasus, Berber tribes in North Africa, and in the Himyarite Kingdom of the Arabian Peninsula.

    According to Sand, the original Jews living in Israel, contrary to popular belief, were not exiled by the Romans following the Bar Kokhba revolt.[18] The Romans permitted most Jews to remain in the country. Rather, the story of the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. They portrayed that event as a divine punishment imposed on the Jews for having rejected the Christian gospel. Sand writes that "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."[19] Following the Arab conquest of Palestine in the 7th century, many local Jews converted to Islam and were assimilated among the Arab conquerors. Sand concludes that these converts are the ancestors of the contemporary Palestinians.[20]

    Jewish peoplehood
    Sand's explanation of the birth of the "myth" of a Jewish people as a group with a common, ethnic origin has been summarized as follows: "[a]t a certain stage in the 19th century intellectuals of Jewish origin in Germany, influenced by the folk character of German nationalism, took upon themselves the task of inventing a people "retrospectively," out of a thirst to create a modern Jewish people. From historian Heinrich Graetz on, Jewish historians began to draw the history of Judaism as the history of a nation that had been a kingdom, became a wandering people and ultimately turned around and went back to its birthplace."[18]

    In this, Sand writes, they were similar to other nationalist movements in Europe at the time that sought the reassurance of a Golden Age in their past to prove they have existed as a separate people since the beginnings of history. Jewish people found theirs in what he calls "the mythical Kingdom of David". Before this invention, he says, Jews thought of themselves as Jews because they shared a common religion, not a common ethnic background.[18]

    Return from exile, Zionism
    Sand believes that the idea of Jews being obliged to return from exile to the Promised Land was alien to Judaism before the birth of Zionism, and that the holy places were seen as places to long for, not to be lived in. On the contrary, for 2,000 years Jews stayed away from Jerusalem because their religion forbade them from returning until the Messiah came. According to Sand, the ancestry of Central and Eastern European Jews stems heavily from mediæval Turkic Khazars who were converted to Judaism, a theory which was popularized in a book written by Arthur Koestler in 1976.[21]

    Overall intent of the book
    Sand explained during a newspaper interview his reasons for writing the book: "I wrote the book for a double purpose. First, as an Israeli, to democratise the state; to make it a real republic. Second, I wrote the book against Jewish essentialism."[22]

    Sand explained in the same interview that what he means by 'Jewish essentialism' is, in the words of the interviewer, "the tendency in modern Judaism to make shared ethnicity the basis for faith."[22] "That is dangerous and it nourishes antisemitism. I am trying to normalise the Jewish presence in history and contemporary life," Sand said.[22]
     

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