Many of those who do support do so very reluctantly and out of party loyalty. Consider people like Lindsey Graham and Marco Rubio. Both openly called him unfit for office. Graham even called Trump a racist. Many people would like the freedom to appear as above it all but when it comes down to it still give in to tribal loyalties. Obviously peoples votes are their right and the secret ballot is a right. What I will note is there a few posters here who will frequently defend Trump while also saying they don’t support him.
The counter factual is what would happen if we had the none of the above option, which would trigger a re-election if it got enough votes. We don't have that in place so neither of us can declare what would happen if it were in place. Again, I'm not saying that doing this one thing and doing nothing else would be the magic bullet. I brought it up in the context of something that I would personally want and need in order to vote in 2024. Maybe I wasn't clear in my first post, and if so that's my bad, but I was just saying that I would vote for None of the Above. Arguing how adding this option alone definitely won't have any impact on a national scale is 1) not what I said, 2) arguing a counter-factual, and 3) has nothing to do with why I even brought it up. And it's not a principled apathy; it's just being principled. If no one running is worthy of winning, then I won't vote for any of them. Lastly, and obviously, what adds to the problem of candidates being beholden to special interests is voting for the candidates beholden to special interests.
I don't understand why anyone would go to such lengths but I don't doubt you're correct. If they defend him they obviously support him. He's not a likable person so if someone is willing to put up with all the stuff he does they'll probably overlook basically anything
Maybe that's exactly why. There are people who relish the liberal tears Trump and will obnoxiously declare their MAGA identity and then there are those who think Trump is a jackass but think they see some kind of advantage they can leverage by making a deal with the devil. So, if you want to pursue that supposed advantage but don't want to be associated with the 'deplorables' you would lie about your voting intentions while still making arguments to provide a rationale for why one could vote for him. Of course, there are also people who just say what they think and because it clashes with liberal orthodoxy they're accused of being secret Trumpers with little consideration that there is a real person doing real thinking at the other end. I agree with you that it seems like a waste of time to interact with posters who are not sincere in what they post, but it is actually hard for me to decide if someone is putting on a front or is just coming from a mental place that is not familiar to me.
Except in many races there is that option. Consider how many Democrats have voted "Uncommitted" in the primaries. Besides that there is always Write-ins. You could write in "None of the Above" and if "None of the Above" actually got a majority that would likely invalidate an election or at the minimum lead to a Constitutional crisis. That is principled apathy. If it was a principle that you were willing to act on you could work on a third party movement, I did in Minnesota, or a "none of the above" movement. Simply not voting because you don't like any of the candidates is apathy. Again you have to understand how party politics work and this is why I suggest you attend a caucus even just to observe it. It's a simple rule, those who participate get to make the decisions. They don't care about who's not there.
Politics by nature is a dirty field that requires compromise. Everyone likes to trumpet about how principled they are and how they would never compromise yet the truth is that most do. So I don't know for certain how many or really if any of those who defend Trump actually vote for him and it's their right to keep their ballot secret. I can understand though to an extant why thy do so. On the flip side I wouldn't be surprised if there were people on the Left who hate and despise Hillary Clinton and / or Joe Biden who did vote for them. I'll fess up to that I've hated Joe Biden's personality since his Senate days and still roll my eyes frequently when he speaks yet not only voted for him in the last election but will again in this one.
with what Arizona just did with abortion rights, I actually think Dem turnout is what will increase…Joe Biden himself doesn’t drive turnout, but anti-Trump and what will happen if he has another 4 years will because they’re not gonna stop at abortion…they’re even talking about the Civil Rights Act now
just “not voting” is so ridiculous and nonsensical to me this isn’t Joe Biden vs a normal sane republican/republican party that’s actually interested in governing
They have always talked about the Civil Rights Act. They were just nearly not as vocal about it before the rise of Trump. I suppose it is a good thing they are saying the quiet part out loud now, exposing themselves
they talked about it, but like with Roe v Wade, u never really thought we would actually regress 50+ years until it actually happened republicans are getting more and more unhinged by the day
Man, I really really really really hope you're right on this. Because I'm just not seeing it. Admittedly, I'm just basing my opinion on what I see around me. I see most Republican lawmakers rallying around Trump and I don't see much dissention. I see my Republican family members (basically my entire extended family) rallying around him because they think Biden is the worst POTUS in the history of the world since.....well, since the last Democrat POTUS. :eyeroll: Please convince me that Trump isn't going to win and that our country isn't going to slide into a dictatorship. People have been predicting this outcome if their political opponents win for decades. Democrats said it about Bush, Republicans said it about Obama and Biden, blah blah blah...it's just been silly over-the-top hyperbole up until now. But thanks to Jan 6th, this is the fist time in my lifetime that I think it's actually a legitimate concern.
It makes sense if you don't believe in the American construct of democracy at all. If you think that all this voting is just a shell game and that the real power is held by shadowy forces, then I can understand rationalizing not participating in that stupid little game. There are plenty of sham elections in the world. Would you reproach someone in North Korea for not wanting to bother voting (though that might be bad for one's health)?
This is a thread about the 2024 Presidential election. Is there a None of the Above option that would prevent Trump/Biden from running again of it got enough votes? Yes or no? (Further, comparing this to doing a write-in is silly. Come on.) And you're still somehow missing the point that I was just talking about what it would take for me to go wait in line and vote. You are somehow still arguing against things I've never said. I don't know why. This is the only thing I'm really trying to say. I'm not the best communicator but I'm trying to be clear. Not sure what else I can say to get that across. Choosing to not participate in a corrupt and fundamentally flawed system is not apathy, in my opinion, but I can see how it comes across as that to some. Now, as you justifiably mentioned, if I am really so principled as I pretend to be on the Internet, then why am I not using time and resources to push for a None of the Above vote? That's a good and fair question. All I can say to that is that I don't have time and/or resources to do that, but I realize that sure sounds like an excuse. So, in conclusion, I am not the ideal person. Damn.
Donald trump is arguing in supreme court right now that it's perfectly okay for him to use the military to murder his enemies and use the fbi to arrest anyone he doesn't want and we have people in America who are brainwashed that somehow both sides are equally as bad. @Reeko when america goes full facist and trump uses the military to take over the country you can't say you weren't warned. Trump is openly laying out his plans in the open and you have Americans who are braindead about what's coming America is so utterly cooked. Self entitled dipshits who have no idea how good it is to live in a democracy until its taken away. @rocketsjudoka These "both sides are equally bad morons" @GOATuve @Haymitch is why america is doomed as a nation.
I wonder if Biden would test this theory if Trump were to win this case. One should be careful what they wish for.
I don't think people realize how powerful the president is. He hand installs the fbi chief, CIA, US Marshall's, NSA, CBP, homeland security. We allow the president to install every branch of law enforcement and intelligence and somehow we've been lucky up to this point that it hasn't been abused. We've been lucky There should be no reason a president selects the heads of every law enforcement agency. We give the president too much power
well this isn’t North Korea…even the Trump supporters who think the election was rigged are still gonna go out and vote in 2024 most of the people who say they’re not gonna vote are either a lying Trump supporter, some Bernie Bro progressive salty about Biden, someone trying to “stick it to the man,” or a straight up idiot
Yes. You can write in "None of the Above". Prevent them from running again would deny their Constitutional right which cannot be done without due process and not through the vote. We are seeing that with the court cases on Trump. if you aren't voting because it would be difficult to wait in line that would be apathy. You're saying exactly what I'm arguing against. You're saying that choose not to participate because you think it is a corrupt system and that it's difficult to vote. Is that not what you're saying? I'm pointing out that even under this system you have options and you can make changes. Sure you're not the ideal person, none of us are. As I said I have no illusions about Clutchfans D&D and i'm only posting so much today because I'm stuck in hurry up and wait on a few projects. In fact right now I'm simultaneously listening to a really boring webinar on increased roofing insulation. That said I've actually done the work to try to get different candidates nominated and onto the ballot. It's not easy and there is a lot of frustration to it. I recognize and even agree with you that the current system is flawed and the two leading presidential candidates aren't just not ideal but also bad choices. As I said above politics is a dirty field that requires compromise. You can choose to not get involved but that guarantees that you have no say at all in the system.
Barry Obama ordered the death of two American citizens (one was a minor) via drone strikes. Using your position on Presidential immunity, should he stand trial for capital murder? (this is just too easy -- are there any quality debaters left on the liberal side?)
