The PLO and Fatah are secular organizations with Christians having held many prominent positions in them. Also groups like the Popular Liberation Front of Palestine that opposed Israel was headed by a Christian. The breakdown in the situation for Christian Palestinians is due to factors that have affected all Palestinians that yes the Palestinian Authority is corrupt but also that they suffered under the same collective punishment that Israel imposes on all of the Palestinian Territories. Also the Likud government has tacitly supported Islamist Palestinian groups against the secular groups to make it difficult for the Palestinians to form a unified political front.
I know that most people are dependent on articles to understand what life is like on the ground in those territories so maybe my more direct experience can add info that isn't necessarily profitable for the media or war machine. The PLO, Fatah and Mahmoud Abbas are corrupt zionist puppets - I assume you guys know this because it's well known. Hamas - like the similarly immoral & violent Irgun and Haganah that formed the basis of IDF/Israel - was a typical violent resistance/rebel group that surprisingly agreed to clean up their act for an election. When Israel and Hillary Clinton declared their internationally monitored democratic victory unacceptable, they turned immediately to more extreme immoral violence than ever before. PLO and Hamas leaders are living luxurious lives and their children hold passports of countries that support the immoral elements of zionism so these are not moral or religious leaders of any kind. They are outliers in their territories and do not represent their people. That's why Christians AND Muslims are leaving them. Only those who want revenge for their families are fighting for these people. Everyone else obeys them because they have a monopoly on guns/police/food/medicine. Christians and Muslims fleeing them has nothing to do with religious persecution. Palestinian Christians are inseparable from Palestinian Muslims, they marry each other, go to school together, eat together, work together. They love each other, it's actually a beautiful story that we NEED MORE OF in the Middle East. There are no viable institutions in Palestine. It's because Yasser Arafat was murdered and Marwan Barghouti was jailed with frivolous evidence of supporting "terrorism" in an Israeli military trial. Marwan Barghouti would win every election if he was free (according to polls). He supports an immediate and peaceful two-state solution with 1967 borders despite not condemning violent resistance against what all Palestinians and the majority of human beings see as an illegal and unfair occupation. He condemns every attack against innocent Israelis. If you don't know who this guy is, he's the key to you understanding how disingenuous these institutions are when it comes to diplomacy. He is called the Palestinian Nelson Mandela because they are similar in terms of demanding diplomatic peace while not being total pacifists. Israel has never ever offered the UN-approved international consensus 1967 borders to Yasser Arafat or Marwan Barghouti or anyone else. To be frank despite their hateful rhetoric, the PLO and Hamas would begrudgingly accept that 1967 two state solution and they have both hinted that. Hamas and PLO have never offered a fair option to Israel like the 1967 borders - they always start with a majority-Palestinian offer. Israel has never offered the 1967 borders, they only offer a Palestine broken up into pieces still dominated by Israel or a Palestine mostly consumed into Israel. No genuine diplomacy has taken place and each side leaves the table with fake disgust in order to sabotage the process. Stop acting like one side or the other is genuine. The people in both countries are trapped in this unsafe situation by parties that have a monopoly on weapons. These citizens on both sides are all now PTSD-ridden from childhood and through their media/education/military are forced to keep hearing sirens, visualizing traumatic events and paranoia about their life ending very quickly. Gaza is the most PTSD-infested patch of land on earth. THey also have the highest rate of child PTSD in the world. Do you know anyone with PTSD or know it well? If you don't, please take a moment to read about it. https://www.pacificgrovehospital.com/ptsd/symptoms-signs-effects/ These are the people who are going to sit at a table and make peace? Be realistic. These people are all living in a really dark experiment of "what happens if you keep instilling and ignoring a growing PTSD at historic levels". These people are not going to come to peace in these circumstances. WE ALL need to step in and force a permanent ceasefire on both sides and insist without negotiation on the 1967 borders. Yes of course the entire rest of the world has the power to do that with force and without violence on the basis of not wanting this to continue and spill out into our countries. It is easy to create a gigantic international coalition army that will enforce peace there especially if the U.S. wants to join since that will be roughly 200 countries. The IDF, Hamas and PLO combined cannot combat the international community on this. Sometimes, you just have to check your friend into rehab. Let's stop playing ping-pong with these people's lives.
Cheering for the murdering of innocent people like it's a sports team And then get triggered by protestors angry at innocent people dying. If somehow protestors against Israel mass murdering innocent folks is spinned as terrorist supporters, what does it make folks cheering for idf as they kill tons and tons of children women and innocent folks? But nah it's justified bc they are hunting for "terrorists".
Seder on street: The false idol of zionism. Start at 3.13 to see a truly great speech. I would have not appreciated it if I had not gone to a Seder last night.
Mathloom, I Agree on most of what you posted. Abbas and PLO are puppets. Marwan Barghouti who is held in jail by the Israelis is the guy best positioned to be the Palestinian leader to lead a peace agreement if the Israelis would let hm out of prison. Of course the Palestinians have had no partner for peace along anything close to 1967 borders. PTSD is a great problem on both sides. Obviously with the Palestinians and on the Israeli side continuous traumatizing about the Holocaust reinforced from birth as well as the hatred the millions of Israeli experience as they enforce Apartheid. With regard to the force necessary to impose a deal on the Israelis who will be the tougher party to coerce, it depends on the US being totally all in with essentially all the other 200 countries agree. China, Russia, India along with a few of the other big powers would be enough to push it through. To change the US resistance to a peace deal, it will be necessary to overcome our corrupt political system with the ability of billionaires who punch thousands of times above their weight in our supposedly one person one vote democracy. For instance you must overcome the wealthy Jewish/Zionist lobby, the wealthy fundamental Christian Zionists who are intrigued with The Rapture and the military industrial complex who like the profit the fighting in Israel generates. If you can martial that much international power to force essentially the Two State Solution why not go for the One State Solution which worked in South Africa and appears to be happening in Ireland. See:https://nathannewman.substack.com/p/the-state-and-the-states.
Glynch I think it's best to look at the corrupt US political system and have a mindful plan. To prevent something is practically impossible. What needs to happen is that there is simply a better option on the table for most powerful stakeholders (and I include citizens in the powerful stakeholder group). What I see is that there is no doubt that at some point citizens of the US will wake up and say "I want to take care of us more than I want to take care of them". Extreme nationalism is the tool by which they convince people to put their own well being second to some religion or theology or philosophy. The idea that it's ok to send all this money to war instead of spending it on elite universal healthcare or free/great education or homeless or whatever. I think we're getting to that tipping point. Just like in a dictatorship, at some point the dictator or the deep state has promised too much to too many people and there is simply not enough to go around. At that point they start eating each other up and implode. A live example of that is Saudi Arabian royal family. At some point they're giving $300k per month since inception to every prince ever born and there's a few hundred of them. By the early 2000's there are 30,000 princes and if you cancel the paycheck you're facing a revolt from all 30,000 people who by this point have serious influence in the country and around the world precisely through the wealth you made available to them. That's unsustainable, which is why we got to the step where the ruler had to house-arrest some people in a hotel and recoup some wealth for the state. That's still not going to be enough so the risk of implosion has been postponed but not resolved. In the same way, I think the US deep state has bitten off more than it can chew. When it's imploding, the entity will typically act like it's not happening. In truth we know the US deep state was in control or influencing 60-70% of the world post WW2 and their entire goal was to maintain that. Today, there are more mouths to feed than ever and that number is at 40-50%. Mathematically speaking, either there will be an implosion or the citizens will generate the first revolution in history to prevent such a thing. On the one state plan, in my heart I wish for a secular state not named Palestine or Israel where all those people live in a free, democratic and military-less society (something like Switzerland or Germany but more democratic than the United States). Certainly it's possible if the US joins the momentum of peace or if it simply abstains. If the US gets out of the way, a peace can be forced economically rather than militarily. Most of the world boycotting Palestine/Israel will make them comply It's really that simple. There are also a few Arab states that are obstacles and do not want to see those people thriving and thus competing for tourists and foreign investment. I'm not a big fan of the South Africa model because the people who ran apartheid SA remained powerful and influential through their wealth and - to this day - continue to create barriers between the resources of the country and the new-born people of the country. However, I've tried to take my own ego out of the Palestine issue and think of what the people on the ground want. Just like when people stupidly ask why neighbouring countries don't take Palestinians as refugees, the answer is that what the people on the ground want actually matters if a stable solution is to be reached. I believe in forcing temporary decades of peace but I don't believe in enforcing the terms of their very long term future. To recover from PTSD you need to feel safety and these people may simply need to get safe in order to get calm in order to feel grief in order to get centered in order to choose their direction. I think these people for now need and want two states and my thought is we should listen to them. Show them they can trust us and that we believe in each of them to create powerful economies once the war machine stops sapping their pockets and souls. I do believe ultimately those two states will join a middle eastern super state so it will not matter if they are one or two countries, but that's my own dream and I don't want to impose that. Jews are our people and will be part of the Middle East once their trauma subsides. I think it will take a lot longer to heal the soul than it will take to fix the geopolitics so a two state solution may be the baby steps they and we need. What I do know is that a solution is not possible while we arm them and they assassinate each other's kids and rockets are flying back and forth and grief has not been processed and medical PTSD/Trauma is insanely rampant.
Sir, when people say two state solution they don't mean it as a general term. They are referring to the internationally agreed upon two state solution according to the 1967 borders. So yes it is true that Israel has offered a kind of two state solution multiple times and those two state solutions were rejected by the Palestinians, but they were rejected in favor of the 1967 two-state solution. The two state solutions offered by Israel would break Palestine as a supposed sovereign nation into 2-3 separate pieces of land surrounded by Israel and you are correct, that has been rejected multiple times. In common discourse when discussing two-state solution, everyone educated on the matter understands that we are discussing a 1967-based solution that gives each country contiguous states with full sovereignty over their own borders and the resources under the ground. To avoid being one sided, I should mention that Palestinians have also made disingenuous offers of peace and they have been rejected by Israel. These two sides are not sincere thus far in seeking a peace and are more interested in being able to tell everyone the other one rejects peace. They have both offered each other shitty deals and all those deals have been rejected. In the specific example you cite, Arafat came to the negotiating table saying he wants the 1967 two state solution and he left the table still wanting that. He didn't expect a one-state Palestine solution neither before nor after the conference. In fact he was promised the 1967 solution before arriving and when he arrived they offered something different hoping the world's eyes would pressure him into accepting something less than the 1967 option. There were no participants at that peace conference - neither Israeli nor Palestinian - who dispute that Arafat was in fact interested in THE two state solution. Most Israelis at the conference and most Israeli citizens were unhappy that this opportunity for peace was wasted. If you are interested in peace, that's a story that should give you hope because it shows that there is in fact a path to peace that the citizens of those two places would begrudgingly agree to and the international community would be ecstatic about. In my humble opinion, the day an Israeli leader and Palestinian leader sit at a table where the only option is the 1967 two-state solution without any other pre-conditions from either side, this conflict will be over. Both sides will complain that it's not fair, which is exactly what a fair solution would look like. After all we like to dramatize things as Middle Eastern Arabs and Jews. I hope we will see it in our lifetime.
