Yeah, this is right - Amen may be a great passer but he is also a really smart cutter AND an elite rebounding guard AND an elite finisher. Those make him a bit of a unicorn as a guard. I've said it earlier in this thread multiple times but conventional thinking will not get the most of Amen's unique talents. I think we have to look at him more as a better passing version of the elite off ball player Dwayne Wade than an elite PG who just needs to find his shot(one of many mistakes made with Ben Simmons). Amen's passing will always shine when he has the opportunity but to focus on that takes away from those things he does that literally no guard in the league does(except vintage Ben Simmons) I think he also causes some mismatch problems because he is such an elite rebounder - do you put a bigger body on him and hope they keep him off the boards knowing that creates a mismatch elsewhere offensively(a smaller guy on Sengun? Good luck there...) and how does that impact matchups on the other end? Amen is probably one of the few guards who can front a big in the post AND can jump high enough to prevent an easy entry pass over the top. However, this does mean we need to play with 4 other somewhat competent 3pt shooters - this doesn't work if Sengun doesn't improve his shot...and Sengun really owes it to Amen because Amen's ability to always be in the play even after fighting over screens IS what allows a guy like Sengun to be playable defensively because he still does not defend in space well despite this year's improvement.
D-Wade is a guy I keep thinking about lately too. Dude was a horrible shooter. People remember his midrange game being better than the statistics say it actually was. He had many years where he was under 40% from 10 feet out to three point range, and he rarely shot over 30% from three, and most years had very low volume from outside. But he was an absolute menace in the paint, had a functional short-midrange game, was an amazing steals/blocks guy for a guard, and a good playmaker.
I mean he also had a very tight handle entering the league. That probably is going to most determine if he's going to be more of a on ball creator or an elite off ball finisher and playmaker.
I think Wade is a good reference point. Wade's mentality was pure attack dog; he drew fouls, shot a lot of FTs and had a Hall of Fame career despite never being a good shooter. He understood his strengths and maximized them. Wade was also good at facilitating for others. Amen's mentality is more to facilitate but he clearly has some "attack dog" in him and I expect this to increase going forward. Wade was a very good rebounder (especially key rebounds late in games) but Amen's rebounding instincts are already beyond Wade's , especially on the offensive glass. I expect Amen to tighten up his handles considerably. When he does, his quickness will give him the opportunity to also draw a lot of fouls.
There we go - now you guys are starting to see the Wade comp. Check out this video and tell me Amen can’t get 10pts a game easily just utilizing what Wade does here:
I wonder if amen is so good at being the cutter/dunk man was b/c he had a twin setting him up for it his whole life. like man playing the role like hes been doing it his whole with how easy it is for him to get dem ez buckets
It’s a valid point - most high level bball players like that have been given the ball from a young age but since he has played with his brother for so long - he has had to learn to share with his brother and thus play off ball at time. Compare that to let’s say Jalen Green - he has never not been his teams playmaker in any league in his whole life.
Close but Wade’s finishing at the rim was better and mid range. I still see his game right now to a young Scottie Pippen cmon old timers back me on this.
] I’m an old timer and I get the reference but Scottie never had elite athleticism like Amen and I think that is too important to how Amen operates to compare him to other guys who may have elite size but not elite athleticism.
Pippen never could rebound like Amen does (10.4 per 36min., 3.3 offensive), nor could blow by his man to attack the rim as Amen. i watched EVERY single game during the Bulls championship years, Pippen played a very different game, he lacks the elite first step that Amen uses to blow by defenders easily. Pippen is the floor general for the Bulls, distribute the ball to MJ and others perfectly, which is not yet something Amen can do now (especially now he's playing at the 4 position while Sengun out and FVV as the lead guard). personally i see more of a young Grant Hill in Amen, even their states are similar in their early days Amen (per 36min.): 15.4pt / 53.9% / 15.7% / 10.4reb / 4asi / 2.1stl / 1.2 blk Grant Hill (2nd year): 20.2pt / 46.2% / 19.2% / 9.8reb / 6.9asi / 1.3stl / 0.6 blk
You could also argue that the competition Pipp played against were inferior in terms of athleticism. The Bulls version of Scottie was easily a Top 25-30 Player of All Time so anything Amen can achieve it will be compared to a HOFer.
Nitpicking here: The game is half defense and half offense. Amen is a universe better than Hill defensively at the same age. Amen is probably currently better than Hill was in his defensive prime. That’s half the game they’re different. No one is a perfect comp but Amens comp has to be an ace defender and off ball player at minimum.
Underestimated at the draft how basically strong, smart, fundamentally solid and above all fast he was next to his athleticism... Only good things will happen.
I am really liking Amen as the roller. His downhill speed and processing really shine when he gets the ball after a screen.
Comparing him to Pippen is somewhat less helpful IMO because Scottie didn't play in anything resembling the modern game. Wade was still in the league in 2019, though granted, his peak took place a little bit before the pace-and-space era.
Wade is a good comp in some aspects, but a major factor that made Wade into a superstar was his foul drawing shennanigans. And that seems to be something that's a bit harder to develop than fans generally think. The guys who are good at this stuff generally shows it pretty early or even before coming into the league. Perhaps we haven't seen enough of Amen on ball to know how he'd do here, but the odds of him reaching Wade's elite level of foul drawing IMO is also a low probability event. To me Amen can be anyone he wants as long as he learns how to shoot at an acceptable level (40~45% on mid-rangers and ~33+% on 3s). But if can't, then Ben Simmons is still unfortunately the closest guy I can think of.
That's true, he'll probably never draw fouls at Wade's rate. Wade's free throws accounted for 5.7 of his 23.3ppg over his career as a whole. So far, it appears reasonable to think Amen will only be around 65% of that level. That plus his lower FT% will result in lower scoring. However, Amen does project to make up for it in other ways related to being taller than Wade. Ben Simmons is not a perfect comp either... he's in a different class in terms of size, wasn't as athletic, and was much more afraid to even shoot the ball. I suppose halfway in between those two is the best we're probably going to do. Jimmy Butler is another name that jumps to mind, though he does not have Amen's level of athleticism, and managed to turn in a good shooting season on occasion (he also had some ~25% from three stinkers).
