Toast is right. I hate to agree, but just like Rudy T, Phil Jackson got more out of his players than any other team or coach could do. That tells you all you need to know. So as much as I would like to think that Phil Jackson latched onto good teams, I'm worng, He's a good coach. He gets his players to play. Stange thing, Jordan and Collins.... who woulda thunk, but it's a great story. ------------------ humble, but hungry.
Speaking of making role players live up to their potential, he did a heck of a job getting more out of Scottie Quitten than anyone else since. Actually, Michael Jordan was the one who made Quitten look so great, not Phil Jackson. When you're playing second fiddle to the top guard in NBA history, it's kind of easy to get opportunities off his double teams, and the pressure isn't squarely on you. ------------------ President of the Mo Taylor, Jason Collier, and draft Richard Jefferson fan club! Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! Sign up for season 2 of the CC.net NBA Sim League! http://bbs.clutchcity.net/ubb/Forum12/HTML/000328.html
What about the year Jordan was gone and Scottie was the "leader" and the Bulls made it to the conference finals? ------------------ If you want it you got it, You just got to believe, Believe in yourself, Cause it's all just a game, We just want to be loved
You need a consistent roster. You need a post player (not "presence") who can pass (MJ, Shaq, Kobe). You need a coach that wants to run the offense. Chicago has none of those. They stopped running the offense after the awful West Coast swing that ended the first half of the season. Post All-Star Break, it was two-man games. ------------------
What about the year Jordan was gone and Scottie was the "leader" and the Bulls made it to the conference finals? Well, Having the 'zen master' that year still didn't prevent Quitten from quitting on his team when he didn't get a play called for him at the end of the game in the playoff series. ------------------
One game, wow, you're right, I guess Phil Jackson isn't a good coach b/c of one freaking game. They won that game too. ------------------ If you want it you got it, You just got to believe, Believe in yourself, Cause it's all just a game, We just want to be loved
Forget the championships and "getting the most from your players" stuff for a moment. Let's just talk X's and O's. Did Shaq and Kobe come up with the defensive game plan that throttled the formerly high-scoring Sacramento Kings? Or add the pick-and-roll plays (not normally part of the triangle offense) that got Kobe several dunks/layups in Game 1 against the Spurs? Each coach has different strengths and weaknesses, but it's hard to see any way that Jackson isn't at least in the top tier of NBA coaches with guys like Rudy T., Larry Brown, and George Karl. And it's silly to blame him for wanting to coach the most talented team possible. Rick Pitino admitted the main reason he went to Boston was the belief they were going to draft Tim Duncan. Larry Brown wanted the job for the same reason, and when Pitino snagged it he went to the team that had Allen Iverson. These guys didn't get to the top of their profession because they liked losing. ------------------
Band geek--my reference was to those who said that Jackson made Pippen a winner and a leader. Despite the fact that his team won that game, Pippen showed none of those traits. And yes, one game, when you are the man, is important if you decide to quit in the final seconds. ------------------
steve, name a coach, and I'll find a disgruntled player that couldn't play for that coach. ------------------ "Empire" had the better ending. I mean, Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett. It ends on such a down note. I mean, that's what life is, a series of down endings. All "Jedi" had was a bunch of Muppets.
Yes, you are right. However, my point is that it seemed (could have been misreading things) that some were suggesting that under Jackson S. Pippen played like a winner. And in some ways he did. But when it mattered most, Pip showed what he was made of. So, basically I'm just saying that as great as Jackson is/isn't, his effect on Pip's 'heart' was minimal, or atleast it would seem that way. I will agree with those who say that Pip played his best ball for Jackson, I don't think that is up for debate. However, I do wonder whether it was the influence of Jackson, Jordan, or his decline in play is because of his age. Maybe its a little bit of all these factors, but I guess thats for a different thread. ------------------
gettinbranded- you're a Bulls fan? I always though that Tex winter never got the credit he deserves from Bulls fans. IMHO, he's the real genius. It would be more accurate to label him as "chief triangle" since he's the one who actually invented that offense. I think he's the basketball genius, and Jackson is the guy that gets everybody on the same page emotionally. But that's easy to do when you've got either a combo of Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe leading your team. Those tandems demand respect from their teammates. He's simply overrated as a coach. Shaq and Kobe would have won eventually even if Jackson didn't hop on board. Same with Jordan and Pippen. Who'd the bulls have as coach b4 Jackson? Doug Collins i think? He would have coached that tandem to a title too. Jackson didn't get the most out of Pippen, either. He simply coached Pippen in his prime. Pip is now past his prime with 2 major back surgeries under his belt. Unless JAckson has a fountain of youth the "zen master" wouldn't have him playing like he did in his 20s and early 30s. I think the reason the Lakers are one big happy family again is because Kobe realized he needs to keep "the big dog" happy if they are going to repeat. Bryant is an intelligent guy and he knew he needed to cut the crap and start differing to the most dominant player in the game. But i bet if they gave my uncle Ed a tandem of Mj/Pip or Shaq/Kobe in their prime he'd coach them to a title. Which leads me to wonder, if you have a dominant 1-2 punch on your team, should you really care who your coach is? MAybe they'll eventually find a way to make things work on their own, without a great coach. Could Jackson have coached the 94 Rockets to a title, having only one superstar? ~~~~ Hey Kelly, are you the writer (Kelly Dawyer) from onhoops.com? Is so, your pieces are very enjoyable. ------------------ PHILOSOPHY "Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: 'mankind'. Basically, it's made up of two separate words -- 'mank' and 'ind'. What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind."
gettinbranded- you're a Bulls fan? I always though that Tex winter never got the credit he deserves from Bulls fans. IMHO, he's the real genius. It would be more accurate to label him as "chief triangle" since he's the one who actually invented that offense. I think he's the basketball genius, and Jackson is the guy that gets everybody on the same page emotionally. But that's easy to do when you've got either a combo of Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe leading your team. Those tandems demand respect from their teammates. He's simply overrated as a coach. Shaq and Kobe would have won eventually even if Jackson didn't hop on board. Same with Jordan and Pippen. Who'd the bulls have as coach b4 Jackson? Doug Collins i think? He would have coached that tandem to a title too. Jackson didn't get the most out of Pippen, either. He simply coached Pippen in his prime. Pip is now past his prime with 2 major back surgeries under his belt. Unless JAckson has a fountain of youth the "zen master" wouldn't have him playing like he did in his 20s and early 30s. I think the reason the Lakers are one big happy family again is because Kobe realized he needs to keep "the big dog" happy if they are going to repeat. Bryant is an intelligent guy and he knew he needed to cut the crap and start differing to the most dominant player in the game. But i bet if they gave my uncle Ed a tandem of Mj/Pip or Shaq/Kobe in their prime he'd coach them to a title. Which leads me to wonder, if you have a dominant 1-2 punch on your team, should you really care who your coach is? MAybe they'll eventually find a way to make things work on their own, without a great coach. Could Jackson have coached the 94 Rockets to a title, having only one superstar? ~~~~ Hey Kelly, are you the writer (Kelly Dawyer) from onhoops.com? Is so, your pieces are very enjoyable. ------------------ PHILOSOPHY "Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: 'mankind'. Basically, it's made up of two separate words -- 'mank' and 'ind'. What do these words mean? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind."
I just think coach is more than just Xs and Os. Phil motivates his players thats the bottom line. No other coach was able to maximize the talent that the Bulls and Lakers had, Hate him or Like him he has a way of convincing players to fit into his philosphy. ------------------
Try to find a coach who won a NBA championship without a great player or two. That's right, none exist. Don't forget this Laker team was swept by the Jazz and Spurs in the playoffs previously to Jackson being named head coach, so they weren't a championship-caliber team. And Cat, president of the Mo Taylor fan club? That club can't have more than 2 or 3 members. Face it, even the pitiful Clippers recognized that Taylor can't play. ------------------ Los Angeles Lakers and St. Louis Cardinals: Continuing excellence into the 21st century.
What is it with all these Lakers fans whining because we don't care about Phil Jackson? Real classy. Go back your your Laker boards. ------------------ "I'm not here to protect my reputation, I'm here to make my reputation! Mama Barkley didn't raise no chumps!" - Charles Barkley
WHAT A JOKE ALL OF YOU WHO THINK PHIL IS THE MAN... Give me shaq or Kobe or jordan.. and I will give you a championship.. even if we had the triangle offense you think we would be in the finals??? give me a f*cking break... ------------------ "no matter how good she looks someone... somewhere..is tired of her sh*t"
"It's far easier to get a team full of underachievers to play at the top of their game every night than it is to get two superstars to play up to the top of their ability night in and night out, to get them to play togather and to get them to involve and trust their lesser talented team-mates." I have to disagree with that quote. Number one it depends on the stars. Some stars may not be able to do it, others might do it willingly. Jackson is a good coach, not a great coach. His Hype serves to get players to respect him. But because he has great hype, I wouldn't say that makes him a great coach. I wouldn't say he's bad either though. ------------------
This is more about Pippen than Jackson, but it wasn't just one game. It was the most important game of that season, because their season was on the line and it was the playoffs. Yes They did when that game, but they won it because Kucoc made the shot. Not Scottie ------------------
How ya'll will ignore 8 rings in what 11 years is beyond me. Such generally considered good coaches as Del Harris and Doug Collins, and perhaps a future one in Kurt Rambis, continually has colossal failures with same components Jackson has developed into Juggernauts. You can try to make up all the hollow critera you want--but can he take bad players and get them to be an average team? but can he take average players and make them a good team? I'll say the best coach is the one who can get the most consistent performance out of his teams. If this performance was ONLY achieved when he was the captain that offers further substantiation as being a "great coach". If further this consistency occurred when the team had a plentiful supply of aholes and/or egos on the team that deserves even more credit. I rooted against Jackson's Bulls every championship they earned. I even rooted FOR THE JAZZ in a series for the first, and only, time in my life against Jackson's team. But I can give credit where credit is due, and by any reasonable criteria, Jackson is the best NBA coach in the business. Before his stint with the Lakers you could have made an argument, for Riley, Wilkens, Rudy, or maybe even Karl, Sloan and Larry Brown being in his league, but now it is a no contest.
Hmm, so guys like Alvin Gentry, Dan Issel, and Rick Pitino should be amongst the best? They have all been CONSISTENTLY bad! ------------------ My doctor says I am bipolar. I am going to get a second opinion. I have never had intimate desires for polar bears.
