College/tuition: The largest of scams in plain site

It doesn't have to be a reduction in government benefits or services. It can also be the failure to improve government benefits or services.

Essentially, the burden of this handout falls on the tax payers, and Joe Plumber is a tax payer. Would those dollars have been spent on something that would've directly benefited Joe Plumber? Unlikely. But that still doesn't mean it's ok to give a handout without congressional approval.

This isn't a new law, and there isn't a plan to pay for it.

But honestly, IMO, there won't need to be. I think this is just a publicity stunt to paint Republicans in a negative light as it gets kicked up to the Supreme Court. I'm not a lawyer, but based on my understanding of the constitution, I think the SC would rule this unconstitutional.

 

Excellent.

 

Here's the bet i'm willing to make in how this plays out

Since this got announced right after they used reconciliation rather than putting it in the bill (i'm sure its a coincidence), this will sit as an unfulfilled promise to go into the midterms and try to get people out to vote

Then when the republicans undoubtedly take the house, and may take the senate, since without control of both houses, this sort of thing is never making it out of congress, it'll be a wedge to use against the republicans as to why they stole the free moneys~

 

Where do you get this stuff from?

Congress actions is not needed.

The programs are starting this year and enrollments have already started.

The Biden-Harris Administration's Student Debt Relief Plan Explained (studentaid.gov)

What do I need to do in order to receive loan forgiveness?

• The application will be available before the pause on federal student loan repayments ends on December 31st.

What is the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program?

• Temporary changes, ending on Oct. 31, 2022, provide flexibility that makes it easier than ever to receive forgiveness by allowing borrowers to receive credit for past periods of repayment that would otherwise not qualify for PSLF.
• Enrollments on or after Nov. 1, 2022 will not be eligible for this treatment. We encourage borrowers to sign up today. Visit PSLF.gov to learn more and apply.

The Biden-Harris Administration is working to quickly implement improvements to student loans. Check back to this page for updates on progress. If you'd like to be the first to know, sign up for email updates from the U.S. Department of Education.​

 

You're not wrong. I am not sure is if there is any actual underwater basket weaving - nearly every college course I saw have some sort of critical thinking element to it.

But I agree that not everyone needs to college - or rather, not everyone needs to go to college at the age of 18 and for four years. But there are trade schools which have been around for ages. So yes, there are well paying jobs that don't require a college education, but that do require skill, and that's the main issue I take with your argument. If you graduate high school you're going to have a very tough time making more than minimum wage. If you want to do better you either have to go to college to get into the professional or science track, or, you need to develop a trade. Can you do that from watching youtube videos? I am not sure. There's a lot more to being an electrician than what's in youtube videos - there's hands on experience that can't be replicated. I know I gain a lot from youtube videos in fixing things around the house or setting up projects. But there are some thing that require skill. I can replace a sprinkler head, but I wasn't able to fix the broken line in a bush - I tried - and I am pretty handy. I had to hire someone who knew how to do it without killing the bush.

Everyone doesn't need a free education in terms of college, but it would be smart to make sure everyone has a pathway to work that allows them to support themselves. It lowers crimes, it lowers the burden on our social systems, and it increases tax revenues.

 

I think STEM will be as basic as standard reading/writing/math/science/history in primary school. Liberal arts is where you go above the basics. Creative solutions require thinking way outside of just the basics of math, engineering, technology, and science. An "art" form of coming up with creative ideas and solutions is what will separate the well-off or humans from machines in the next century. (speaking as someone that is heavily in STEM and not so much in arts)

 

OK, but that's kind of rich coming from the party that more often than not argues to cut back those benefits and services to working class people like "Joe Plumber".

And forgiving student loan debt is also a pretty big benefit. What the long-term ramifications will be -- whether it ultimately help or hurts working class people -- remains to be seen.

As for the argument that this debt forgiveness is unconstitutional -- will be interesting to see how that plays out as well.

 

Its not affordable to subsidize every 18-22 year old (if you even stop at 22) cost of education and living expenses.

That’s why most countries heavily limit access.

“A more educated populace is always better” - is a silly argument, nobody actually does this. What countries provide free college and living expenses for all citizens? Societies invest in those people and areas of study that are most worthwhile. There is incredible gate keeping around access to higher education. Does that higher education include some humanities? Yes but a limited amount. Not for every citizen.

 

Pure GOLD !!!

DD

 

Some panel in California took a lot of flak for recommending schools to teach algebra in high school and deemphasize calculus until college while replacing it with "data science" which was watered down non-college grade stats...all while teaching "equity" in math classes and downplaying "gifted students". So instead of spending more time on math like taking both geometry and algebra in the same year, you get some watered down BS that punts the hard stuff to "overpriced" colleges.

https://www.latimes.com/california/...controversial-math-overhaul-focuses-on-equity

Yeah, students should feel good and safe when learning (not sure I ever did in class), but to lobotomize the core teachings as a ****ing booster seat seems a bit sociopathic for both the administrators and eventually the students who catch on.

America has talked about how broken the education system since the last millennium. Our system that funnel dummies and dimwits into blue collar jerbs while letting higher performers enter STEM, MBA, law or PHD positions has become outdated and inefficient. Globalization forces every country to use its best to the fullest and now it seems the laggards are being propped up.

I'd argue that the race for talent is a huge factor in promoting diversity than actual ideal or moral positions.

We need all the help we can get.

The real unsolved and unspoken issue is diversity at the C Level. It's not enough to hire a rainbow coalition of workers and stiffs. Instead, it's played divisively at the bottom while the Good Ol Boys hire and do what they want to do at the top.

 

There's a difference between cutting benefits/services for the vast majority of people and targeted handouts to people who should presumably be able to earn higher levels of income later in life.

In any case, just because the Republicans haven't helped the working class as much as the Democrats doesn't invalidate their argument.

A 100% wealth tax on billionaires with the proceeds divvied up between everyone else would also be a pretty big benefit. Why aren't we doing that, too?

Given that the argument President Biden used to cancel $10k in student loan debt could also be applied to cancelling $1.75 trillion in student loan debt, I think the Supreme Court would find it unconstitutional. When the SC ruled against the EPA, the reasoning was that a "decision of such magnitude and consequence rests with Congress itself, or an agency acting pursuant to a clear delegation from that representative body."

I think that same reasoning could be applied to student loan debt cancellation.

 

Subsidies are of that nature.

When Trump gave all that money to Iowa farmers, it was a direct handout from taxpayers.

He could argue the tariffs he levied paid for it but we all know it was a bribe.

 

Do you know for how long farmers have received subsidies from the federal government?

 

Worse he had to BORROW that money from CHINA instead of selling them Soybeans and rice......and the farmers maid that money by having China pay for their goods, Trump literally borrowed the 13.5bn .

Such a ****ing moronic way of running a country or a business, buy, borrow, die...doesn't work when the country doesn't die.

DD

 

Do you know for how long students have received subsidies from the federal government?

 

My point is that farmer subsidies have always had congressional approval.

Student loan cancellation? Not so much.

 

If you're wasting my time to get me to research Lies or "muh non-stinky gut feelins" you want disproven, then bravo...Big Brain Move.



Farmers Got Billions From Taxpayers In 2019, And Hardly Anyone Objected

In 2019, the federal government delivered an extraordinary financial aid package to America's farmers. Farm subsidies jumped to their highest level in 14 years, most of them paid out without any action by Congress.

The money flowed to farmers like Robert Henry. When I visited in early July, many of his fields near New Madrid, Mo., had been flooded for months, preventing him from working in them. The soybeans that he did manage to grow had fallen in value; China wasn't buying them, in retaliation for the Trump administration's tariffs.

That's when the government stepped in. Some of the aid came from long-familiar programs. Government-subsidized crop insurance covered some of the losses from flooding. Other payments were unprecedented. The U.S. Department of Agriculture simply sent him a check to compensate him for the low prices resulting from the trade war.

" 'Trump money' is what we call it," Henry said. "It helped a lot. And it's my understanding, they're going to do it again."

Indeed, a few weeks later, the USDA announced another $16 billion in trade-related aid to farmers. It came on top of the previous year's $12 billion package, for a grand total of $28 billion in two years. About $19 billion of that money had been paid out by the end of 2019, and the rest will be paid in 2020.

"President Trump has great affection for America's farmers and ranchers. He knows that they're fighting the fight and that they're on the front lines," Secretary of Agriculture Sonny Perdue told reporters while announcing the aid package.

The announcement aroused little controversy. "I was surprised that it didn't attract more attention," says Joe Glauber, the USDA's former chief economist, who's now a senior research fellow at the International Food Policy Research Institute.

Glauber says it deserves more attention, for a whole collection of reasons.

For one thing, it's an enormous amount of money, more than the final cost of bailing out the auto industry during the financial crisis of 2008. The auto industry bailout was fiercely debated in Congress. Yet the USDA created this new program out of thin air; it decided that an old law authorizing a USDA program called the Commodity Credit Corp. already gave it the authority to spend this money.

"What's unique about this is, [it] didn't go through Congress," Glauber says. Some people have raised questions about whether using the Commodity Credit Corp. for this new purpose is legal.

Glauber sees a risk of "moral hazard" — a situation in which someone is shielded from the consequences of poor decisions. The decision to start the trade war was costly, he says, and the Trump administration, by tapping the federal Treasury, is avoiding the political fallout from that decision. "The sector that is hurt the most, and which would normally complain, all of a sudden it's assuaged by these payments. To me, that's a problem," he says.

Also, the payments are quite generous. According to studies by several independent economists, the USDA is paying farmers roughly twice as much as the actual harm that they suffered from the trade war. And the payments are based on production; the bigger the farm, the bigger the payments. Thousands of farmers got more than $100,000 each. According to an NPR analysis of USDA records of payments made through July 2019, 100,000 individuals collected just over 70% of the money.

Catherine Kling, an economist at Cornell University, says the government could at least have demanded some public benefits in exchange for that money. "I think it's a real lost opportunity," she says.

What farmers do with their land has a huge impact on water quality, wildlife and climate change, Kling says. The USDA has programs that pay farmers to help the environment, doing things like restoring wetlands.

The budget for those environmental programs is just a quarter of the size of this year's trade-related payments. So Kling's reaction to this year's farm bailout is, "Wow, [there are] so many things that money could get spent on that could really be beneficial to taxpayers, who are ultimately footing the bill."

On Capitol Hill, there has long been a quiet alliance between lawmakers who support farm subsidies and those who support food stamps, or SNAP. Together, they've supported the budget of the USDA, which runs both programs.

Events in 2019 tested that alliance, as the USDA helped farmers while restricting SNAP payments.

"They've already given out $19 billion to farmers, but they're cutting $5 billion from people in need," says Rep. Marcia Fudge, D-Ohio, who sits on the House Agriculture Committee. "I don't even know how to describe it except to say that it is cruel, it is unfair, and it is clearly designed to support the president's base, as he sees it, as opposed to those whom he sees as being undeserving."

The USDA has not yet announced whether it will deliver another round of trade-related payments to farmers in 2020.​

 

"For one thing, it's an enormous amount of money, more than the final cost of bailing out the auto industry during the financial crisis of 2008. The auto industry bailout was fiercely debated in Congress. Yet the USDA created this new program out of thin air; it decided that an old law authorizing a USDA program called the Commodity Credit Corp. already gave it the authority to spend this money."

For your argument to work, you're going to have to prove that the Commodity Credit Corp didn't have the authority to spend the money.

https://www.usda.gov/sites/default/files/documents/26ccc2017notes.pdf

The above link is from 2017, and here's an excerpt from the link:

CCC assists in stabilizing, supporting, and protecting farm income and prices, helps to maintain balanced and adequate supplies of agricultural commodities, helps in the orderly distribution of these commodities, and assists in the conservation of soil and water resources. The goal is to promote economic stability in the farm sector through an approach that supports farm income and facilitates prices that are reasonable to consumers and competitive in world markets, while retaining basic management responsibilities of farmers and minimizing Federal interference in the agricultural economy.

 

Are you a lawyer now? Hmm

I'm not a doctor, but based on my understanding of your constitution, I think you have Type II Diabeetus.

 

Man I have a STEM degree but you guys are seriously addicted to it. "No degree outside of STEM matters". Okay let's run a society for 50 years where the only higher education programs are "STEM" and see what happens.

The United States has a literacy patience issue. Yes most Americans can read and write but they don't have the mental curiosity and patience to sit down and read long dry articles that provide proper context.

STEM degrees ain't going to solve that ****. Investing classes in high school ain't going to solve that ****.


STEM degrees can provide many future career opportunities that are fulfilling and lucrative. I get it but stop slobbering over it and dismissing snt other form of education outside that field.


How do you think someone like @Os Trigonum feels when you tell him his entire field of study is worthless and a drag to society?