NBA to address wack shooting fouls in the off-season. Rocket Legends Harden & Olynyk faint

So is the question . . .. will these be called. . .. if so will they be non shooting fouls?

Rocket River

 

LeBron ran to silver and asked them implement these rules cause Luka is on pace to break his records

 

Rocket River's point was did you see how those things started years ago. Harden did ALL of those things because he was getting murdered every time in the lane and not getting calls or getting fouled on the elbow of a 3. He is just clever enough to realize if he is not going to get treated fairly he is going to game the system. Don't you at least find it odd that every year there is some new anti-Harden rule that ultimately doesn't matter? If his game was bullsh1t wouldn't it have fallen apart by now after all the times they have tried to go after him SPECIFICALLY.

 

According to new NBA rule, should be non-calls. So basically you hook, you play on. No foul.

 

this is absolutely one of the calls that in no way should be awarded free throws.

 

But not clever enough to realize that "gaming the system" is a regular season strategy; it fails in the playoffs.

 

I find it odd that Harden fans keep believing there is a league-wide anti-Harden conspiracy specifically out to get him year after year. Harden is such a poor fellow oppressed by the almighty powers.

 

my uncle is an aau assistant coach in nevada and he basically has been involved in the youth basketball program for years and he has said what the media tells you about stephen curry changing the game and kids wanting to be like him is bullshit. He said in 2017 that more and more younger kids were emulating james harden's style of play. In fact some of these kids go as far as to say they FLAT OUT DO NOT RESPECT THE WAY CURRY PLAYS. These kids as young as 13 think relying on moving screens and having other players guard your assignment is weak and they do not respect it( most of these kids irionically respect klay thompson more than curry). Its one of the reasons steph charges so much for his basketball camps. A lot of kids from the inner cities dont rock with currys game like that so price them out and target your audience

I think the league knows this too, which is why they are trying to limit harden as much as they can to stop these guard prospects like iman quickley for example from coming in and foul baiting, while using the stepback. Hardens style of play is the easiest way to score 30 if you know how to master it.

 

How much of Harden's game do you believe is gaming the system? I am guessing you think 90%. If you believe that the Rockets and not the refs were gaming the system in Games 6 and 7 against the Warriors I don't know what to tell you. Also, are you part of the same crowd that believes Harden should ALONE be better than KD, Klay, Dray, Curry, and Iggy. No other fans of other teams treat their stars that way or think that way. Harden was always worn down in the playoffs after carrying this team and still averaged 30 and not the 50 you expected. Who else showed up? That's right, Harden lost all of our playoffs ALONE.

If you think all the times fouls on Harden are not called because of "gaming the system" you don't watch basketball. The playoffs comment is a failed narrative because refs swallow their whistle on him for clear fouls. On here and everywhere else it gets translated to "letting them play" or other terms but suspiciously seems to almost always be one-sided. Harden's usage and fouls have always been high because he is destroying other teams and they will do anything to stop it.

I can agree with all of the other proven myriad faults of Harden posted on here before off the court, early lackadaisical D, TOs, etc. He is far from perfect and has done stupid ****. This BS foul crap that pops up though is exactly that. If you don't believe NBA execs, media, and the refs don't like Harden you are naive. It has a big impact. It makes the playoff statement ridiculous. I am sure you also agree with all of the MVP snubs.

 

But it should be a foul
IF you are not going to call that . . .then we might as well bring back the whole HAND CHECKING
The Defender can now use his hand to "hold" the offensive player's off hand down
So now the Offensive player has to "free" his off hand . . .THEN go into a shooting motion
that is a MAJOR advantage for the defender

Rocket River

 

it should not be a shooting foul is all i care about. it's ridiculous to be awarded free throws in that example. you're focused on being soft and allowing less contact by a defender. I welcome good defense and that involves physicality. this isn't the ymca or local rec. there's absolutely nothing wrong with what mitchall is doing. pg13 using his left hand to hook is absolutely not basketball.

 

Defenders absolutely should not be rewarded or encouraged to reach/grab/hold the offensive player
if you consider than GOOD DEFENSE . . .I don't know what to tell you
Allow the Defender to strong arm the offensive player - hand checking them across the court
putting his hand between the offensive player's off and and dominant hand. (which would require the offensive player
to use extra motion on his shooting to get the hands together)

If you want bully ball . . .. JVG Ball . . . .. 78 - 86 pt games
I dunno what to tell you

Rocket River

 

He wasn't reaching. and yeah there's nothing wrong with what mitchell is doing. the game of basketball isn't contactless. that's part of playing defense

a lot of people don't understand what good defense actually is and a lot of people shy away from any type of actual contact and cry foul all the time. You definitely sound like you're one of them. that's simply called being soft and scared

you don't need to tell me anything. a bunch of these calls that award free throws is pathetic and needs to be taken out. like giving pg13 3 free throws for that. Thankfully that's what theyre trying to get rid of

 

So with the NEW RULES
Which of these will be eliminate?

Rocket River

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/30947170/the-nba-savvy-moves-innovators-push-limits-rulebook

Spoiler

ONE OF TRAE YOUNG'S favorite moves is simple. He gets the ball, calls for a screen and turns the corner, putting his defender on his hip as the help comes over to corral the drive. Once he feels his defender behind, he brake-checks, pulling up into a quick shot.

A little old thing called Newton's first law of motion kicks in: A body in motion remains in motion unless acted upon by a force, i.e., the defender runs helplessly into Young's back.

The whistle blows. The foul is called. Two free throws are given.

Young hit the Brooklyn Nets with the move on Dec. 30. Nets head coach Steve Nash was not a fan.

"That's not basketball!" Nash yelled at the officials.

Nash's criticism went viral, and Young and the Hawks defended the star guard's tactic while others debated and discussed its fairness.

"I learned a lot about drawing fouls from [Nash]," Young told reporters in early January. "If he says it's not basketball, he must've been saying it about himself because he's done it a couple of times throughout his career and was so successful."

For his part, Nash said he was just sticking up for his team and trying to gain an edge with the refs. It was a heat-of-competition comment, but he has no real issue with Young's play. Players have constantly been searching for advantages within the game: inventing and reinventing different ways to bend the rules.

"Other guys have pet moves that are there to deceive or to fool not just the defense, but the referees," Nash said. "That's where the game continues to evolve."

Moves like Young's stop-short jumper are crafted, refined and mastered through years of innovation. And like a cartoon rowboat, the league plugs one hole only to find another.

The prevailing feeling around the league: If you're not pushing the boundaries, you're not trying.

Chicago Bulls, Detroit Pistons, Charlotte Bobcats and Orlando Magic, was dribbling at the top of the key.

Gordon, a right-handed shooter, brought his left hand toward the ball as if he was preparing to gather, rise and take a jumper. But right before the ball hit his left hand, Gordon put the ball back down on the floor as his defender went flying. It was a pump fake without the pump. (Today, players such as Stephen Curry and Kemba Walker have mastered the move, too.)

"I almost blew the whistle," said McCutchen, a 24-year veteran referee who now works as the NBA's vice president of referee development and training. "I went up to Ben during the game and said, 'You almost not only fooled [the defender] but you almost fooled me.'

"He goes, 'I know, I've been working on that move.'"

McCutchen is well aware of the schemes players pull. It was routine before games that players would approach him to pitch a sneaky move they'd been workshopping in the lab and ask whether it was legal.

Referees watch tape. They know what kind of offenses teams run, if they play on the low block or spread the floor. They also pick up on players' tricks. But there's balance involved in not predisposing oneself to player tendencies. "You can't let that knowledge turn into anticipation [that] leads to a quick decision," McCutchen said.

"They're not annoying. If you watch enough games every night, you know what to expect. There's a skill to that. That stuff James [Harden] does where he puts the ball out, that's a skill. DeMar DeRozan is great at it. That's a skill."

Like every front office and coach, referees are well aware of the surging impact of analytics. Efficiency drives the game, and that means plenty of corner 3s, shots at the rim, and, of course, free throws. In the same way coaches design offenses to create the most efficient shots, players try to find ways to the stripe.

If deceiving an official is the best path, so be it.

"There's all these concepts that are very clinical in the rulebook," McCutchen said. "Our teams and our players then push that limit of what the rulebook says, until we as the league say we like or don't like how our game is right now."

Plays like Young's brake-check jumper have created a lot of conversation within the league. But there are so many clever maneuvers players use. Some are so subtle to the point of being nearly unnoticeable, like Kyle Lowry setting up to take a charge and gently pulling the offensive player into him to make it look like he got plowed over.

McCutchen has a polite name for these players: innovators. He won't name names, though NBA fans know the prime culprits and the strategies they deploy.

"Innovators, such as some of the players you may be imagining," McCutchen said, "are always going to test the rules."

A good example: The rulebook is clear about two steps after a gather. But what it doesn't say is that the steps have to be forward, backward or sideways. Players such as James Harden, Jayson Tatum and others have, ahem, innovated to take that step-back to extremes.

Boston Celtics great Paul Pierce splitting double-teams, jumping from one foot to the same foot, then taking a second step with his other foot. At the time, it technically wasn't a travel. The league's competition committee amended the rule: no hopping.

"Referees and the league are always going to be a half-step or step behind our teams and players," McCutchen said. "Because their job is to find the advantage. That's how you win, is finding little advantages that over 48 minutes add up to seven points or three points or one point."

Separating players from their reputations is part of the referee's job. It might seem that there could be some prejudice for the players who routinely make officials look bad, or lower their grade for getting more calls wrong. But officiating those players is a challenge to embrace.

"That's the challenge of a referee that you let the outside noise of status run to the side, and you don't worry about the status, you worry about the actual rule," McCutchen said. "You start to take on the mentality that it's about the concept."

"Now," McCutchen said with a grin, "some players are better than others at maximizing the concept."

CHRIS PAUL IS a true basketball genius. He plays in the game in a perpetual state of bullet time, with plays going by in slow motion. Details and intricacies are seamlessly picked up on the fly.

And Paul, who has served as players' union president since 2013, isn't bashful about talking about the rules of the game -- even bending them. If he sees a defender hanging his leg out, Paul will run into contact and force a whistle.

A cousin to Young's brake-check pull-up is Paul's stop-short, where a ball handler will feel a defender on his back, typically in the backcourt, 50 or more feet from the basket, and slam on the brakes to let an unassuming defender run over them for a foul. To some, that's simply known as "the Chris Paul."

Once an opposing team puts the Phoenix Suns in the bonus, there isn't a more dangerous player on the floor.

Another favorite of Paul's is the rip-through, a tactic seemingly popularized by Kevin Durant in 2009. It's simple: Your defender is on you with an arm outstretched. You swing the ball in a counterclockwise motion (if you're right-handed) into the defender's unassuming arms, catching contact as you begin something resembling a shooting motion.

As a young player, Durant struggled with defenders crowding him and needed something to counter their aggressiveness. He was taught the move by teammate Desmond Mason.

"Desmond warned me that guys were going to get up into me on defense," Durant said in 2010. "I saw him do it a few times and I kind of stole it from him."



<More on Site>

ESPN's Marc Raimondi contributed to this story.

 

If he wasn't reaching. . .. . what was he doing? Why was his hand in PG13's space?

Rocket River

 

he's playing defense. thats what he's doing. so he's literally just supposed to watch pg13 move with the ball. people that dont know how to play defense will say yes. The only reason why there's this supposedly illegal contact is because pg13 hooked up with his left arm which is not an actual basketball move. it's not that hard

 

I think if the defender is clearly holding or touching the offensive player, its still a foul. What the NBA wants to eliminate is the offensive player hooking the defender with off arm then going into a shooting motion.

 

Hopefully it will eliminate all of the above. I just want to see clean basketball. No more hooking arms, stop and flop, running into defender or jumping into guys for Free throws.

 

I feel like almost half of his drives to the basket are focused on gaming the system as opposed to trying to score. How many times did we see him use his right arm to reach through the defender's arm and pull the defender while gathering the ball? That's almost his go-to move.

The reason that Harden struggles so much in the later rounds of the playoffs is because opposing teams game plan against his shenanigans. In the playoffs with us, he became very predictable.

Maybe he lost them alone because he kept pushing his co-stars away? Also, Dwight showed up against the Blazers.

 

His hand wasn't in PG's space. PG's space does not include a perpetual radius that's the length of his arm.

In fact, I'd argue that's Mitchell's space since his arm was there before PG's arm.